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Post by hodsopa on Jul 20, 2023 14:49:18 GMT
Trying to understand the rules - is it the case that if I hit a 2-element-deep column in the flank (while also fighting it to its front),
- if the rear element in the column will give rear support, the elements are not repositioned. Then, if the front element suffers a recoil outcome, both elements are destroyed;
but
- if the rear element will not give rear support, it is moved back a centimetre or two (just clear of the front edge of the element attacking its flank) and will not be affected by the outcome of the combat - ?
Thanks for any clarification,
Paul
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 20, 2023 15:27:43 GMT
Thanks, Paul, good examples of some standard situations! First example: yes. See Figure 20a. of the rules illustrations. Second example: both are destroyed, as long as they form a column and both are contacted in the flank, see Fig. 20b. If the second element has moved back before the attack (into front corner to front corner contact or more, it is safe, at least for the moment...  ) See Fig. 20b. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 20, 2023 15:54:48 GMT
.......... - if the rear element will not give rear support, it is moved back a centimetre or two (just clear of the front edge of the element attacking its flank) and will not be affected by the outcome of the combat - ? Thanks for any clarification, Paul Nope. If the enemy element coming in on the flank makes front corner to front corner contact with the leading element in the column, the second element stays where it is and is destroyed if the front element recoils or is destroyed. If the flanking element also contacts a third element in the column (e.g. a column of Sp on narrow bases) the third element is also destroyed. If the flanking element makes front corner to front corner contact with the second element and the second element is not providing rear support, then the rear element turns to face. But I don't believe there is any circumstances where the rear element would get a free move backwards. |
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Post by hodsopa on Jul 21, 2023 9:22:49 GMT
Thank you Brian. I should have looked at the diagrams. Not an intuitive rule to me but I should learn it now - Paul
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 21, 2023 10:48:34 GMT
I'm still learning the rules, too. And always arise new questions. Take this situation:  Two early polish 4Sp on the road are attacked by teutonic order 3Ax (in the front) and 3Kn (in the flank). After the teutonic order moving into contact the second polish 4Sp is in front corner to front corner contact with the 3Kn. What happens? |
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Post by sheffmark on Jul 21, 2023 12:07:59 GMT
Don't think anything happens between the Kn and the second spear.
The Close Combat section on page 10 says you have to have a front edge in contact for close combat to occur. I think the general agreement has been that a corner is not an edge.
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 21, 2023 16:05:03 GMT
I'm still learning the rules, too. And always arise new questions. Take this situation: Two early polish 4Sp on the road are attacked by teutonic order 3Ax (in the front) and 3Kn (in the flank). After the teutonic order moving into contact the second polish 4Sp is in front corner to front corner contact with the 3Kn. What happens? Ax fights Sp. Factors 3 v 3 (unless the Sp is in a wood). Sp destroyed if it is beaten. Ax recoils on a tie and Kn also recoils. Note too that the second Sp is in the Threat Zone of the Ax. |
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 21, 2023 16:12:18 GMT
I'm still learning the rules, too. And always arise new questions. Take this situation: ... Two early polish 4Sp on the road are attacked by teutonic order 3Ax (in the front) and 3Kn (in the flank). After the teutonic order moving into contact the second polish 4Sp is in front corner to front corner contact with the 3Kn. What happens? Ax fights Sp. Factors 3 v 3 (unless the Sp is in a wood). Sp destroyed if it is beaten. Ax recoils on a tie and Kn also recoils. Note too that the second Sp is in the Threat Zone of the Ax. Yes, the second Sp is in the TZ of the Ax, right. But is it also in the TZ of the KN? I'd think so ... |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 21, 2023 16:34:25 GMT
Ax fights Sp. Factors 3 v 3 (unless the Sp is in a wood). Sp destroyed if it is beaten. Ax recoils on a tie and Kn also recoils. Note too that the second Sp is in the Threat Zone of the Ax. Yes, the second Sp is in the TZ of the Ax, right. But is it also in the TZ of the KN? I'd think so ... No. Touching the far edge of the TZ, puts an element in the TZ. Touching the side edge doesn't. |
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Post by Les1964 on Jul 21, 2023 16:35:22 GMT
Yes, the second Sp is in the TZ of the Ax, right. But is it also in the TZ of the KN? I'd think so ... I think the Sp needs some part of its base , infront of the Kn's front base edge to be in the TZ . |
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 22, 2023 9:23:00 GMT
Yes, the second Sp is in the TZ of the Ax, right. But is it also in the TZ of the KN? I'd think so ... I think the Sp needs some part of its base , infront of the Kn's front base edge to be in the TZ . Well, I detect a kind of flaw here. Enemies facing each other over 1 BW are in each others TZ, but at right angle with touching front corners are not? A bit strange. |
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Post by vodnik on Jul 22, 2023 9:33:09 GMT
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Post by paulisper on Jul 22, 2023 11:53:27 GMT
I think the Sp needs some part of its base , infront of the Kn's front base edge to be in the TZ . Well, I detect a kind of flaw here. Enemies facing each other over 1 BW are in each others TZ, but at right angle with touching front corners are not? A bit strange. Not quite - they need to be either within or no further than 1BW to be in TZ P |
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 22, 2023 12:32:56 GMT
Well, I detect a kind of flaw here. Enemies facing each other over 1 BW are in each others TZ, but at right angle with touching front corners are not? A bit strange. Not quite - they need to be either within or no further than 1BW to be in TZ P Sorry, that doesn’t convince me. The rules concerning Threat Zones (p. 9) state: An element or group (...) whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches
its far edge can move only (...) to advance (...) or (...) to move straight back (...).
I'd say the front edge of our knights in the little Hyde Park skirmish touches ( and thus enters) the second enemy spears TZ. Furthermore the knights front edge touches the far end of the second spears TZ in one point, which is in our picture also the left front corner of the attacking Prussian auxilia. So accordiing to the rules I find two reasons why two units contacting in 90° angles are in each others threat zone, right? |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 22, 2023 12:42:31 GMT
Sorry, that doesn’t convince me. The rules concerning Threat Zones (p. 9) state: An element or group (...) whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches
its far edge can move only (...) to advance (...) or (...) to move straight back (...).
I'd say the front edge of our knights in the Hyde Park skirmish touches ( and thus enters) the second enemy spears TZ. Furthermore the knights front edge touches the far end of the second spears TZ in one point, which is in our picture also the left front corner of the attacking Prussian auxilia. So accordiing to the rules I find two reasons why two units contacting in 90° angles are in each others threat zone, right? No. Because the Kn hasn't entered the Sp's TZ and is touching the side edge not the far edge. |
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) See Fig. 20b.
