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Post by snowcat on May 18, 2023 1:03:10 GMT
Following on from this, I just want to point out that a very similar suggestion to your last was proposed a few years ago, centered largely on fixing Pk-based armies that were deemed 'nerfed' (due to having to narrow their frontage) - and while several people agreed with the double-element suggestion logically, it was unfortunately found to be too much of a good thing, i.e. it redressed the balance of pike-based armies too much the other way. Personally, I would have hoped that the first double-element lost costing 2 points towards defeat would be enough to assist, but apparently it wasn't. Same goes for Warband. I do think your suggestion should be considered for 8Pk, 6Wb & 8Wb, and hope that playtesting may find that it can work. (I leave out 6Pk only because I think it's a fantasy troop type, and I already have my own 'solution' for them, which I'll propose very soon.)
(And then perhaps a new solution for de-hobbling horse archers can also be found.)
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Post by dpd on May 18, 2023 18:18:42 GMT
Snowcat - "which would make them a super army"
Seems an apt description of the army of Alexander the Great. ;-)
IMHO Alexander's army would have defeated any army in history up till the Swedish army of Gustavus Adolphus, the first army to emphasize gunpowder firepower.
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Post by dpd on May 18, 2023 18:24:01 GMT
Snowcat - "I leave out 6Pk only because I think it's a fantasy troop type"
Not sure about that.
6pk v 8pk seems to be a good way of differentiating between ancient/Hellenic pike armies and medieval/renaissance pike armies.
The ancient/Hellenic pike was used as the anvil (to the cavalry's hammer) and was used defensively to fix the enemy army in place, remaining vulnerable in its flanks and rear.
The medieval/renaissance pike moved aggressively and quickly, winning battles by itself, and being capable of forming squares for all around defense.
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Post by snowcat on May 19, 2023 1:45:54 GMT
Snowcat - "which would make them a super army" Seems an apt description of the army of Alexander the Great. ;-) IMHO Alexander's army would have defeated any army in history up till the Swedish army of Gustavus Adolphus, the first army to emphasize gunpowder firepower. It means all the armies with 4-6+ x 4Pk that are currently somewhat hobbled under the Rules As Written would become 'disproportionately improved' if those elements were all regraded as 8Pk. It has previously been shown to unbalance the game too far in the other direction. Same with 6Pk, 8Sp, 6Wb, 8Wb, etc.
I wish it wasn't true, but...
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Post by snowcat on May 19, 2023 1:57:46 GMT
Snowcat - "I leave out 6Pk only because I think it's a fantasy troop type" Not sure about that. 6pk v 8pk seems to be a good way of differentiating between ancient/Hellenic pike armies and medieval/renaissance pike armies. The ancient/Hellenic pike was used as the anvil (to the cavalry's hammer) and was used defensively to fix the enemy army in place, remaining vulnerable in its flanks and rear. The medieval/renaissance pike moved aggressively and quickly, winning battles by itself, and being capable of forming squares for all around defense. Except all the medieval/renaissance pike are graded as 4Pk (not counting the Far Eastern bamboo freight train nonsense), so you'd have to change all of those as well. (And 6Pk for representing European medieval/renaissance pikemen would look bloody awful!)
Like I alluded to before, once you go down this path, you will find more and more things that *need* fixing, and you will end up rewriting the game.
(Have you looked at L'Art de Guerre'? It doesn't have many of these particular issues that affect DBA (largely because of DBA's 12 element army system). It is however more detailed, using fatigue and gradual attrition instead of the elegant recoil system in DBA - among other things.)
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Post by vodnik on May 19, 2023 6:46:39 GMT
...using the idea of snowcat ADG is great. I love these rules. The unbeatable pikes ideas mentioned here are clearly house rules...
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