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Post by timurilank on Jan 10, 2023 8:21:48 GMT
II/80d, Strathclyde Army 580 – 1054 AD, have three cavalry with an optional fourth element on their army list.
I am researching another Anglo-Saxon event, adding the Kingdom of Strathclyde among the list of historic based scenarios, however, finding sources mentioning any mounted forces during the period of Viking incursions is perplexing.
Throughout nearly five centuries, Strathclyde was in conflict with the Welsh, Mercia, Northumbria, the Scots and Norsemen. According to the few surviving primary sources, most online, some the conflicts that took place and the monarch who ruled at the time. None list the strength of either force, the location of the battle or who was in command.
From the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, in 890, King Donald II of Alba expels the British aristocracy of Strathclyde, most flee south to North Wales. Would this mean, with the aristocracy, so went the cavalry? The next mention of Strathclyde is their alliance with the Scots in 937; some historians mention not as an independent kingdom, but as a vassal of Alba.
Not advocating any changes to the army list, but keeping a large cavalry presence seems to contradict the general trend of combat during the 9th and 10th century, that is if mounted, dismount to fight on foot.
Any thoughts?
Any thoughts?
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Post by jim1973 on Jan 10, 2023 11:37:44 GMT
Your logic cannot be faulted. This is not the only army list that in covering such a long period (~500 years), the make-up can look out of place at certain points of history. It seems to me to happen more with the "supporting cast" of nations around the main historical protagonists. But we also must remember that our sources are limited, sometimes severely limited. I've just put up a link to a podcast on hoplite phalanx depth in the Off-topic section to illustrate how few sources actually talk about the depth. The absence of records doesn't exclude the presence of cavalry. It could simply be that Strathclyde was too small to warrant much attention from the latter Anglo-Saxon chroniclers. Or that the cavalry simply didn't have much battlefield effect against Saxon spearmen. You could try to rationalise the cavalry as small numbers in a small army so the percentage represented is the same.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by timurilank on Jan 10, 2023 15:40:44 GMT
Jim,
You are correct to mention armies were small and most likely smaller than the recommended historical scale as suggested on page 14.
Planned, is a mid-9th century battle between Strathclyde and the Scots. In five tests, Strathclyde was consistent, losing all tests.
Strathclyde may enlist the ‘black gentiles’* (Vikings) as allies, however, DBMM places 937 as the earliest date.
*From the Annales Cambriae (Annals of Wales).
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Post by jim1973 on Jan 11, 2023 11:54:44 GMT
I was looking at the DBMM army list and the most cavalry a Strathclyde army could get is General + 4 companions per command. At the DBMM point cost they would represent a significantly lower percentage of the army than the DBA army list. Another argument that they are over represented in DBA.
Jim
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Post by timurilank on Jan 11, 2023 13:13:29 GMT
Jim,
I reached a similar conclusion, using DBMM, giving Strathclyde and the Scots an equal number of mounted.
We will play the scenario out next week.
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Post by Haardrada on Jan 11, 2023 15:35:16 GMT
Another answer could be that like the Saxons of their time they became mounted infantry and used the horses to move more rapidly on campaign?
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