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Post by wombatdazzler on Oct 4, 2016 1:26:53 GMT
Situation: Gate leaving Fort/BUA is in an enemy elements Threat Zone and I cannot fully clear the Fort/BUA to contact.
Can I leave the Fort/BUA by contacting the element and fighting combat?
If so assuming I still have part of my base in the Fort/BUA what factors do I use?
And if I lose am I destroyed for being in a Fort/BUA?
Cheers
Daz
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Post by evilgong on Oct 4, 2016 8:27:11 GMT
Gawd, maybe if you can't somehow place the element outside you just can't leave the fort/city? Then again there are also rules saying that if you make frontal contact there must be combat, with somebody shifting.
I don't think you can end partly in the fort/city and partly without, so your factors and outcome would be for whatever the terrain is outside the fort/city where you end up.
That's all a guess without checking the conforming to contact rules.
David F Brown
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Post by arnopov on Oct 4, 2016 11:30:32 GMT
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Post by medievalthomas on Oct 4, 2016 15:43:19 GMT
Here's a get you by for now solution:
Move the element as far forward as possible and conform to the enemy. Resolve CC with no Castle modifier. If defender recoils move attacking element forward enough to clear Castle (even if in didn't normally pursue). If attacker loses logically it would just retreat back through the gate but the rules say if your in contact with a Castle or City you are Destroyed. So in this case Recoil is fatal.
TomT
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 4, 2016 16:35:47 GMT
Tom:
Looks great to me.
Joe Collins
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Post by gregorius on Oct 4, 2016 22:40:21 GMT
Darryl, it begs the question, why leave the BUA?
Cheers,
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Post by evilgong on Oct 4, 2016 23:12:30 GMT
You might want to leave to kill a relatively weak element and win the game, or to knock out an artillery element bombarding you. Plenty of historical examples of the later.
I re-read the rules and think you are in the lap of an umpire, my guess would be to displace / move the TZ-element enough to allow the defender to leave his city and line up.
DB
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Post by twrnz on Oct 5, 2016 5:38:33 GMT
This is a fascinating question.
Interestingly it is one I've not as yet seen come up, despite playing numerous games that involve a city, as many of my opponents will confirm. On many occasions I have had troops sally out, but never has a defender been positioned to restrict such an action. Perhaps they may now!
A city can have two gates, a fort seems to be limited to one. If a defender has not modelled two gates perhaps he will in future?
I'm inclined to not allow the defender to sally out in the situation described. Perhaps the next garrison will comprise archers so the enemy can be driven off, or the garrison could exit via another gate leaving the denizens to defend the city with the enemy nearby...
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Post by BrianNZ on Oct 6, 2016 11:02:35 GMT
I am assuming that the Fort/BUA is garrisoned by a foot element, not Denizens.
Daz the Rules state " At the start of the game a city can and a fort must be garrisoned by 1 foot element, placed near its centre but representing defenders manning its perimeter."
Your element can't be a garrison as it has sallied partly out of the gate and away from the centre of the fort so the +4 Tactical Factor would not apply. IMO
Rules state " +4 If garrisoning a city or fort........"
Rules state " If its total is half or less than half that of its opponent: Destroyed if defenders of a city, fort or camp."
Your element is a Defender that has Sallied. IMO
To sum up, if an enemy element has moved into the TZ of the fort's gate but not assaulted the fort, thus leaving a gap, then the garrison can sally into contact using its standard combat factor only ( no Tactical Factors added ) against the enemy element and would be destroyed if its total was less than half that of its opponent. Normal recoil rules would apply.
note only Denizens & Camp Followers would be quick killed if sallied.
How does that sound ?
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Post by medievalthomas on Oct 6, 2016 15:35:57 GMT
I don't favor any solution which makes it impossible to sally out and conform. We worked a long time in DBA 3.0 development to try and prevent geometric tricks that prevent contact - and largely succeeded. Putting a blocking element such that it prevents a sally because you can't get your overscale attacking element's butt out of the way smacks of a geometric trick.
Reasons for a sally are in the sound discretion of the controlling player. It should not, however, be geometrically blocked.
Only question is whether the contacted element should move back as part of conforming move or attacking element be allowed to "pursue" to get butt out of BUA.
TomT
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Post by BrianNZ on Oct 6, 2016 18:59:30 GMT
Situation: Gate leaving Fort/BUA is in an enemy elements Threat Zone and I cannot fully clear the Fort/BUA to contact. Daz Daz can you post a picture or diagram of the situation please as it would help very much to understand the ramifications of the Fort's TZ on the enemy element. If your element sallies from the fort gate and can't conform ( rules state "If conforming to a front edge by contactors is prevented...., contacted elements or groups must conform or fight as if in full contact and overlapped" ) then the enemy conforms to you. |
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Post by wombatdazzler on Oct 6, 2016 20:39:11 GMT
Here is a piccie. 4Ax v 3Ax.  cheers Daz |
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Post by BrianNZ on Oct 7, 2016 1:21:03 GMT
Thanks for the piccie Daz. IMO your 4 Ax sallies out and conforms to the enemy 3 Ax as there appears to be space available. The combat factor of your 4Ax would be 3 as you have sallied out and are no longer a garrison. The tricky bit is what happens if your 4Ax is recoiled, the Rules state " A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge, friends it cannot pass through or push back, enemy or a city, fort or camp ends its move there. An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead" Bit of a conundrum as there are conflicting options, your element can enter the terrain by the gate as the gate could be counted as directly behind. Your element is already in contact with the fort so therefore cannot recoil and is destroyed. IMO your element would recoil through the gate. Some would argue that the gate would have been closed after your element sallied so you would be destroyed. Help please Joe.........  |
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battledamage
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Post by battledamage on Oct 7, 2016 2:27:23 GMT
Having played against Daz when he used that very fort, I can confirm that we were using the edge of the terrain piece and not the gate in the wooden wall as the boundary of the fort: The 'gate' was the start of the dirt track leading to the wall. So the pic is a bit deceptive, as there isn't space for an element to leave the gate.
Given that one of the tactics I was considering to use against him was to dump my 5Hd in front of the entrance, I'm also very interested in the answer to this question.
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 7, 2016 2:58:20 GMT
Thanks for the piccie Daz. IMO your 4 Ax sallies out and conforms to the enemy 3 Ax as there appears to be space available. The combat factor of your 4Ax would be 3 as you have sallied out and are no longer a garrison. The tricky bit is what happens if your 4Ax is recoiled, the Rules state " A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge, friends it cannot pass through or push back, enemy or a city, fort or camp ends its move there. An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead" Bit of a conundrum as there are conflicting options, your element can enter the terrain by the gate as the gate could be counted as directly behind. Your element is already in contact with the fort so therefore cannot recoil and is destroyed. IMO your element would recoil through the gate. Some would argue that the gate would have been closed after your element sallied so you would be destroyed. Help please Joe......... We play it destroyed. This fits the rules and makes a sally forth a very cinematic gesture. All or nothing. Joe Collins |
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