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Post by dpd on Nov 30, 2022 23:10:48 GMT
Even the Spartacist slave revolt doesn't use Hordes as a unit. From the DBM army lists:
IV45. Sicilian and Italian Slave Revolts. 135BC-71BG
Arable. Ag: 0. E = (a) n/33. (b) n/49. (c) H/49.
(a) 1st Servile War 135BC-132BC: lx3Ax (Gen), 3x3Ax, 5x5Wb, 3x2Ps.
(b) 2nd Servile War 103BC-99BC: lx3Cv (Gen), lx2LH, 2x4Bd, lx3Ax, 5x5Wb, 2x2Ps.
(c) Spartacus 74BC-71BC: lx3Cv or 4Bd (Gen), 4x4Bd, 5x5Wb, 2x2Ps.
And Knights crushing revolting peasants in some obscure village doesn't count as a "battle".
Though Warbands are common units in every barbarian Celtic and Germanic tribe and on every barbarian battlefield, Hordes are just street rioters and angry peasants.
Hordes just don't make the written record.
So why use them at all?
Instead, how about just classifying Hordes as a city / town equivalent of a Warband?
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Post by jim1973 on Dec 1, 2022 3:24:56 GMT
Ikko-ikki in Samurai armies.
Jim
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Post by martin on Dec 1, 2022 8:53:54 GMT
Even the Spartacist slave revolt doesn't use Hordes as a unit. From the DBM army lists: IV45. Sicilian and Italian Slave Revolts. 135BC-71BG Arable. Ag: 0. E = (a) n/33. (b) n/49. (c) H/49. (a) 1st Servile War 135BC-132BC: lx3Ax (Gen), 3x3Ax, 5x5Wb, 3x2Ps. (b) 2nd Servile War 103BC-99BC: lx3Cv (Gen), lx2LH, 2x4Bd, lx3Ax, 5x5Wb, 2x2Ps. (c) Spartacus 74BC-71BC: lx3Cv or 4Bd (Gen), 4x4Bd, 5x5Wb, 2x2Ps. And Knights crushing revolting peasants in some obscure village doesn't count as a "battle". Though Warbands are common units in every barbarian Celtic and Germanic tribe and on every barbarian battlefield, Hordes are just street rioters and angry peasants. Hordes just don't make the written record. So why use them at all? Instead, how about just classifying Hordes as a city / town equivalent of a Warband? ……instead, how about using the v3 lists? |
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Post by Simon on Dec 1, 2022 10:32:31 GMT
Even the Spartacist slave revolt doesn't use Hordes as a unit. From the DBM army lists: IV45. Sicilian and Italian Slave Revolts. 135BC-71BG Arable. Ag: 0. E = (a) n/33. (b) n/49. (c) H/49. (a) 1st Servile War 135BC-132BC: lx3Ax (Gen), 3x3Ax, 5x5Wb, 3x2Ps. (b) 2nd Servile War 103BC-99BC: lx3Cv (Gen), lx2LH, 2x4Bd, lx3Ax, 5x5Wb, 2x2Ps. (c) Spartacus 74BC-71BC: lx3Cv or 4Bd (Gen), 4x4Bd, 5x5Wb, 2x2Ps. And Knights crushing revolting peasants in some obscure village doesn't count as a "battle". Though Warbands are common units in every barbarian Celtic and Germanic tribe and on every barbarian battlefield, Hordes are just street rioters and angry peasants. Hordes just don't make the written record. So why use them at all? Instead, how about just classifying Hordes as a city / town equivalent of a Warband? ……instead, how about using the v3 lists? Exactly! Also, Hordes are fun and can be very effectives especially when they glue to an enemy without recoiling! |
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Post by menacussecundus on Dec 1, 2022 11:29:36 GMT
Didn't the Sassnids shackle their levy units to stop them legging it? And what about everyone's favourite Hd element, the dust-throwing women with banners mounted on oxen (II/61b)?
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Post by Simon on Dec 1, 2022 12:58:08 GMT
I feel a Bakewell tournament theme developing!
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Post by martin on Dec 1, 2022 14:07:13 GMT
I feel a Bakewell tournament theme developing! Minimum 2 x hordes might be a giggle….. |
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Post by sheffmark on Dec 1, 2022 14:25:51 GMT
Ah if only I hadn't retired my Libyans!
Mind you that was the Ax variant, so maybe......
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Post by Ken Gordon on Dec 1, 2022 14:48:59 GMT
I feel a Bakewell tournament theme developing! Great, my Spartacus hordes have yet to see daylight - or victory for that matter! |
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Post by stevie on Dec 1, 2022 15:33:41 GMT
Even the Spartacist slave revolt doesn't use Hordes as a unit. From the DBM army lists: IV45. Sicilian and Italian Slave Revolts. 135BC-71BG Arable. Ag: 0. E = (a) n/33. (b) n/49. (c) H/49. (a) 1st Servile War 135BC-132BC: lx3Ax (Gen), 3x3Ax, 5x5Wb, 3x2Ps. (b) 2nd Servile War 103BC-99BC: lx3Cv (Gen), lx2LH, 2x4Bd, lx3Ax, 5x5Wb, 2x2Ps. (c) Spartacus 74BC-71BC: lx3Cv or 4Bd (Gen), 4x4Bd, 5x5Wb, 2x2Ps. And Knights crushing revolting peasants in some obscure village doesn't count as a "battle". (True)Though Warbands are common units in every barbarian Celtic and Germanic tribe and on every barbarian battlefield, Hordes are just street rioters and angry peasants. (Says who?)Hordes just don't make the written record. (Oh yes they do)So why use them at all? Instead, how about just classifying Hordes as a city/town equivalent of a Warband? (Warbands are warriors who like to fight...7Hd are reluctantly forced into being there.
And 5Hd are the rioters, looking for a fight, but with no military training, skill, or equipment)Hmmm…it all depends on what you want to call them. Hordes, lowly peasants, serfs with improvised farming tools as weapons… …any of these names are far more descriptive than the artificial term ‘5Wb’. Assuming that a ‘Warband’ represents fierce wild brave warriors… … except when they are half-armed conscripted ‘5Wb’ who don’t want to be there… …which is the complete opposite of fierce wild brave warriors… So I’d say that DBA has got it right, and it is DBM that has got it wrong.  |
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Post by stevie on Dec 1, 2022 20:11:59 GMT
After all, it would be rather odd if fierce wild warriors, who come from a society that considers bravery in combat as being the greatest virtue (and sometimes
fought completely naked, with their dangling bits exposed!) were treated the same as a peasant farmer who steps out of his mud hut to be confronted by a soldier saying “Congratulations, you are now part of the king’s army. Grab whatever you can to use as a weapon, and we leave in 5 minutes.” On the other hand, I don’t see the point in having two different types of civilian, i.e. city denizens and camp followers, that follow different rules. (see fanaticus.boards.net/post/8552/ “Sallying Civilians”) |
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Post by dpd on Dec 1, 2022 20:29:15 GMT
Still not sure if there is a truly significant difference between Hordes and Warbands ancientwargaming.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/dba3_qrs.pdfThey both have the same combat factors vs foot and mounted (+3 and +2). Solid Hordes (an oxymoron) don't move as fast in BG and Solid Warbands (1 vs 2) And Warbands get a +1 when doubled, but become a shorter battle line with exposed flanks. Warbands more vulnerable to SCH but Hordes more vulnerable to ELE? Why? Warbands pursue, but not Hordes? They both lack discipline. |
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Post by stevie on Dec 1, 2022 20:59:13 GMT
Page 12, Pursuing:-
(b) An element of Knights (other than 4Kn), Scythed Chariots, Elephants or Hordes pursues 1 BW straight ahead.
The rational of Hd against SCh is that they are huddled together in a deep multi-rank formation,
that halts the chariots by their sheer mass…and stationary SCh have no momentum.
All right, I admit it.
In DBA, with only 12 elements per army, each has to have advantages and disadvantages.
Make Hordes completely useless and nobody would use them.
So it’s a play-balance thing.
Nonetheless, there is a big difference between warriors that have practised all their life
for combat looking for glory compared to a bunch of unwilling conscripts with no helmets,
no armor, no shields, no proper weapons and no fighting skills, who just want to go home.
(And a dirty great elephant in a zoo terrifies me…and I don’t have to fight one!)
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Post by dpd on Dec 1, 2022 22:48:14 GMT
Then maybe treat Hordes as poor quality Warbands?
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Post by stevie on Dec 2, 2022 0:15:21 GMT
Why?…Warbands and Hordes have absolutely nothing in common,
apart from the coincidence of having the same combat factors.
Should we refer to Knights as Pikes on horseback, Scythed Chariots
as Pikes on wheels, and War Wagons as Pikes with bows?
After all, these also have the same combat factors.
If troops have different abilities, and completely different behaviour,
then give ‘em a different name.
I don’t see the point of giving troops the same name, and then having
to empathize how different they are.
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