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Post by medievalthomas on Sept 28, 2022 17:56:09 GMT
The rules are not intended to create historical battles. They are intended to do evenly matched tourmanment games with historical flavor (we added alot in 3.0).
Both element types and terrain rules must be ignored to create historical battles. The rules are quite capable of doing so but were not designed to do this in the DBA format.
To create an historical battle review the information about the battlefield - sometime we don't know much but try at least for the important features.
Then review the capacities of the troops and how they preformed in the battle (and similar battles). Design them to carry out their tactical function.
For examples see Great Battles for DBA Battle of Verneuil.
TomT
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Post by Brian Ború on Dec 24, 2023 14:12:59 GMT
Attack on Hadrian's Wall
Background: In this battle the forces of Imperial Romans try to defend the walls, towers and gates against a massive barbarian attack of Caledonians or Scots. The Romans know that something is going on. Traders and spies informed them about many men assembling in some remote valleys, but yet they are not sure, where or when the barbarians will attack. So they stay alert but dispersed all along the border.
Armies: II/40c or II/54a against II/64a (without Art)
Battlefield: Terrain is hilly. One edge to the north etc. The barbarians attack in the morning mist from the north and the players deploy their camps accordingly. Then the attacker chooses and places the terrain as usual. Now the romans place the Hadrian's Wall from east to west right through the middle of the battlefield. It must contain at least 2 gates. One road must be placed, a second road is possible and may cross or join the other road as the placing player wishes. Rivers are not allowed.
Deployment: The defender deploys 3 of his units including his general anywhere in his half of the battlefield without any special restrictions. Then the attacker deploys his full army anywhere in his part, but at least 3 BW away from Hadrian's Wall.
Special features: At the end of his turn the roman player may spend 3 remaining PIPs to deploy one missing roman unit on any edge of the board, even on both sides of the Wall, but not on the northern edge.
Winning conditions: as usual, but: the barbarians gain one victory point for each two of their units, that manage to leave the battlefield along its southern edge.
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Post by timurilank on Dec 25, 2023 16:34:45 GMT
Interesting scenario, some questions.
Battlefield, “Then the attacker choses and places the terrain as usual”. Should not the defender place terrain?
The length of Hadrian’s Wall is slightly more than 15BW, how thick may it be? Would it not include a road directly behind to connect towers or forts?
Deployment To be clear, the defender has two troop types plus a general? The barbarians may reach the wall on their first bound, but it is not clear how they may cross. Or is crossing the wall is done only at the gates? Defenders placed anywhere on the wall count as defending the gate?
Special features: Clear, cost is 3 pips to place an element on the board edge.
Winning conditions If I interpret this, the barbarians may lose 4 elements and technically the game, but have 8 elements cross the southern edge and gain 4 Victory points.
This would be considered a draw?
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Post by Brian Ború on Dec 25, 2023 17:53:17 GMT
Interesting scenario, some questions. Battlefield, “Then the attacker choses and places the terrain as usual”. Should not the defender place terrain? Not in this case. The attacker chooses the terrain in this scenario.The length of Hadrian’s Wall is slightly more than 15BW, how thick may it be? Not more than ½ BW. Would it not include a road directly behind to connect towers or forts? Normal rules apply. Though the wall may cross gentle hills it must keep the usual distance of 1 BW to any other terrain feature. So the terrain directly behind the wall and in front of it counts always as good going. DeploymentTo be clear, the defender has two troop types plus a general? Right. The barbarians may reach the wall on their first bound, but it is not clear how they may cross. The walls and gates are the same as those of forts and cities and require the same game mechanics. (See BUA and Forts in the Purple Book, p. 7) Or is crossing the wall is done only at the gates? No. It can be done anywhere either by forcing the gates or crossing by ropes, ladders, (or even treason, if you wish). Maybe we need an additional rule stating that once an attacking unit crossed the wall, the other may follow without problems.
(But hold on I'll check.) The original rules state that a fort or city may only be entered if it is left undefended. So we need further clarification on this point. See next post.
Defenders placed anywhere on the wall count as defending the gate? Yes. See the clarification which will be coming soon.Special features: Clear, cost is 3 pips to place an element on the board edge. Winning conditions If I interpret this, the barbarians may lose 4 elements and technically the game, but have 8 elements cross the southern edge and gain 4 Victory points. This would be considered a draw? That's right.
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Post by Brian Ború on Dec 25, 2023 22:42:31 GMT
Attack on Hadrian's Wall–Clarifications
The usual rules of close combat against a City, Fort or Camp apply:
Troops assaulting or defending these use their combat factor against foot and do not count overlaps or flank or rear support. A city, fort or camp can be in contact with the front edges of up to 3 assaulting elements. The defender fights each assaulting element separately in succession, in each combat counting others still in contact as a tactical factor. Combats cease when the defender is destroyed or all assaulting elements have fought. Elephants can assault a city or fort only at a gate.
And:
A fort (or castle) has permanent defences and a gate and must start the game garrisoned by a foot element. It has no economic value or denizens. It is left undefended if its garrison vacates it or is destroyed; and can then be occupied and garrisoned by any troop element. ... Occupiers of a city or fort cannot count as uphill of attackers or assaulters as fighting in bad going, since a hill it is on counts as part of its defences. ... If the garrison is Artillery, its shooting effect is reduced because the artillery is distributed around the perimeter.
So the defence of Hadrian's (or the Great) Wall needs some clarification in respect of its bigger dimensions. I suggest these:
Who attacks and who defends?
Defending units must touch the wall with their front center or may be placed on the walls etc. if possible. Any other defending unit must not be closer than 3 BW from side edge to side edge. So each defending unit controls a part of the wall that is not more than 4 BW wide (regardless of towers or gates) with the defending unit in its center. So, to defend the whole wall of 15 BW length you would need at least 3 to 4 elements of foot and artillery. Attacking and supporting units must stay clear of the wall but be clearly in its TZ. (Only defended walls, towers or gates have a TZ.)
New combat outcome: Occupying the defences
Any attacking unit that finds the walls, towers or gates undefended for a length of 2 BW or more to the left and right of its front center starts occupying them automatically by ropes, ladders or other means. This is shown by touching the defences with its front edge immediately.
Movement
Concerning movement attacking and defending units are in each other's threat zone. Defending units count as dispersed along the wall, so any other friendly units may pass sideways through them as long as they end their move clear of the defending unit.
Some hints
You see the attack will be hard work. But so will be the defence, too. Keep in mind that the attacking general's line of sight is cut by the wall.
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Post by vodnik on Dec 28, 2023 9:28:54 GMT
507 Battle of VouilléFranks under Clovig against Visigoths under Alaric II After the victory over the Alemani the Merovingians liked to expand to conquer whole Gallia namely the Visigothic kingdom of Toulouse. Cholwig mate an agreement with the Byzantines to attack the italian Ostrogoths to avoid gothic suport from Italy 2/83a: later Vikigothic: 1x3Kn(Gen), 3xCv, 4x4Wb, 4x2Ps or 3Bw against 3/5a: middle Frankish: 2x3Kn or Cv(Gen), 6x4Wb, 3xSp or 4Wb, 1xPs ...the battlefield must be wet roads are difficult going. The Franks could not cross the river but deploy from north. The Visigoths from the south with a village on the left side... ...winning conditions as usual...
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Post by vodnik on Dec 28, 2023 13:30:43 GMT
...there are Franks but it is a Triumphbattle...
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