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Post by kaiphranos on May 19, 2022 14:34:04 GMT
So, there's a manufacturer coming out with a new range for Three Kingdoms China in 1/72 scale plastic, and I'm tempted to pick some up. However, I note that the DBA army list for II/63 includes several options for "southern tribesmen" as 3Wb, and I'm not sure what these should look like. Anyone happen to have historical depictions for these guys? (My attempts at internet research so far have been clogged by visuals from some Total War game.)
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Post by jdesmond on May 19, 2022 22:13:17 GMT
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Post by Haardrada on May 20, 2022 22:51:30 GMT
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Post by kaiphranos on May 21, 2022 10:24:03 GMT
Thanks! Based on these, it seems like maybe I could use some spares from my Bronze Age armies, or possibly convert some Dervishes.
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Post by archilochus on Jun 4, 2022 6:26:53 GMT
While I very much doubt anyone would criticise the use of those Essex barbarian Chinese, the sparse sources for those figures are actually for the "barbarian " enemies of the Shang - that is the source for the "Zulu" shield, for instance. As far as my efforts at research over the years indicated, those are probably not very good representations of the "southern barbarians" one would find in a 3 kingdoms army. There are a variety of people who could fall under this label in the armies of Wu (e.g. from Fujian or Guangdong) or of Shu Han (e.g. from Sichuan or Yunnan). That said, clothes are likely to be standard East Asian clothes for the era, weapons and armour fairly standard sinitic weapons for the era (at a 15mm level of detail). From what I could see, identifiers for "non-Han" peoples tend to be framed in terms of colour of clothes, hairstyle, and sometimes presence of tattoos. So you would want to avoid the sort of distinct caps etc that your Han troops may be wearing, preferably some sort of distinct head gear, and sinitic weapons. So there would be a number of different troops you could use, depending on your other figure choices. For Shu Han, at least, I would use the unarmored NanChao in the excellent range by Eureka www.eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_102_843&sort=3a These have a distinctive hairstyle attested for southern Chinese tribes a few hundred years later, somewhat distinctive clothes, with leg wraps, gear that is quote archaic for the Tang er and nothing that marks them as later, with a choice of long spear, sword, crossbow and bow. These also look like the excellent Gingkostory's reconstruction [ www.artstation.com/artwork/0XOdwy ] The breast plate shown on Gingko's archer is only found on the armoured spearman in the Eureka range; if using those armoured spear figures, trim the pole arm blade as it does look late. Khurusan also have some specific southern tribe foot in their Song range [https://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/sung-zhuang.jpg]. You could also use the very nice unarmored foot in baggy robes with no pants from their Spring and Autumn range. Their siamese would also be usable. Finally, the Essex southern dynasties helmeted spear throwers look like the figurines that were identified as possibly Qiang "snub nosed warriors" in earlier Barker lists (conical helmet, robe, javelin, lammelar armour to torso). Or there are always the "generic Chinese infantry" types Essex makes. Maybe glue on some feathers for "barbarity"! To be honest I think any of these would be preferable to the kilted Zulu with Egyptian hair look. cheers |
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Post by hoffmannsama on Jun 7, 2022 3:13:20 GMT
So, there's a manufacturer coming out with a new range for Three Kingdoms China in 1/72 scale plastic, and I'm tempted to pick some up. However, I note that the DBA army list for II/63 includes several options for "southern tribesmen" as 3Wb, and I'm not sure what these should look like. Anyone happen to have historical depictions for these guys? (My attempts at internet research so far have been clogged by visuals from some Total War game.) The above posts are very good, but I think I could add to some of this. So the south had been colonized for a long time before the 3 kingdoms period by the Han govt, while the Imperial Han would prop up powerful clans to keep the peace in the conquered south, while also colonizing and Sinicizing the people of the south. Leading to different groups such as, Nanman ethnic clans/ groups, Nanman ethnic clans/ groups that were awarded with Han names, Sinicized Nanman, Han ethnic settlers, and Han Ethnic Clans. So the revolt in the south was more of powerful Han clans, rebelling and convincing any other unsatisfied clan/ tribe/ govt official to rebel with them. Tribal Elements Depicting these rebelling troops as barbarians or savages, will probably do them an injustice, although you could have some tribal elements as 3/4Wb for warriors, 3/4Ax for lightly armored to medium warriors, Ps for the missile throwers, or 3Bw for bow warriors, but there would be Han elements as well. Possible figures, the Nan Chao spearmen eureka line mentioned in the above post I would highly suggest, with some of the Khurasan's Siamese spearmen and swordsmen with shields line sprinkled in. khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/siamese.htmlHan/ Sinicized ElementsI would have the local Han and Sinicized elements as 7Hd, while having 1 unit of Han clan retainers, which could be 3/4Bd or 4Wb, these are family members or followers that are personally loyal to or part of the rebelling Han family in the south and are well equipped and armed. You would also have some Han regulars doing garrison duty, these can be 3Wb or 7Hd for infantry and 3Cb for ranged. (I have a post in rants and raves section rewriting the early 3 kingdoms period's army lists and it explains a lot about the armies of the time) Possible figures, for the local Han and Sinicized troops I would use the 3 kingdoms line conscript close fighters from Lurkio. For clan retainers, the elite infantry also from Lurkio 3 kingdoms line. Han regulars could be the conscript close fighters above or a mash up of 1 elite infantry, conscripts from the 3 kingdoms line, and mao close fighters from Lukrio's Han line (I'll post a pic of how I did my 3 kingdoms 4Wb element). 3Cb could be from the Lurkio line as well. thelittlecorporal.co.uk/3-kingdoms-to-northern-wei-208-c.aspCavalry ElementsThere's also horse pastures in the south, not as prevalent or as such quality of the northern horses, but were a major source of horses for the southern kingdoms during the 3 kingdoms period. So having Sinicized elements as Lh would be important as well. Most likely a Cv or Lh unit for the General's unit too.
Possible figures, Lurkio's Han Heavy cavalry or Essex's light and heavy Han cavalry would do.Stuff to read and watch: Between Winds and Rain: Making of Yunnan 2nd century BCE - 12th century CE www.gutenberg-e.org/yang/index.htmlThe Kingdoms of Nanzhong China's Southwest Border Region Prior to the Eighth Century www.jstor.org/stable/27867968?read-now=1&seq=22#page_scan_tab_contentsMy google drive that as some stuff on the people that surrounded ancient China drive.google.com/drive/folders/1H3Dm7ocUEUmgrHpUkz2L5Nz8znClnsEn?usp=sharingYoutube video about the historical accounts of the southern expedition by Zhuge Liang youtu.be/AgPr_n9DFIIIf you are looking for that breastplate from Ginkgostory, Lurkio makes a figure very similar. I think the breastplate might be Qiang or Tibetan not Nanman.  thelittlecorporal.co.uk/eastern-nomad-infantry---pack-breaker---687-p.aspthelittlecorporal.co.uk/eastern-nomad-infantry---variety-pack-683-p.asp Lastly, is that new 3 kingdoms line made by Caesar miniatures? I found a few pictures, but I'm not too thrilled over the direction they chose for their line. The pics weren't great quality, but the armor and weapons are all over the place, from video games, tv series', and movies. Idk why they would do that. Hope all that helps and good luck and here is a pic of my 3 kingdoms 4Wb element, a 7Hd would be with added conscripts.   |
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Post by kaiphranos on Jun 7, 2022 14:00:37 GMT
Yes, the Caesar range is the one I'm referring to. A little discouraging to hear that they may not measure up, but perhaps future sets will be more suitable - and in any case I will have to to make do with what's available and what I can convert. I do appreciate the links to 15mm ranges as visual references, but I don't enjoy working with metal on the whole and all my other DBA armies are also in 20mm/1/72 plastic. |
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Post by hoffmannsama on Jun 7, 2022 23:31:23 GMT
Yes, the Caesar range is the one I'm referring to. A little discouraging to hear that they may not measure up, but perhaps future sets will be more suitable - and in any case I will have to to make do with what's available and what I can convert. I do appreciate the links to 15mm ranges as visual references, but I don't enjoy working with metal on the whole and all my other DBA armies are also in 20mm/1/72 plastic. Ahh my bad about the 15mm links, good luck with the 20mm ranges. I think the three kingdoms Caesar range will do you fine, like you said you could do some converting. |
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Post by macbeth on Jun 8, 2022 1:50:45 GMT
Aside from the Siamese range - Khurusan also do Southern tribal warriors in their Sung Range that look really good.
Cheers
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