leftblank
Munifex
"He was born with a gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad"
Posts: 5
|
Post by leftblank on May 14, 2022 7:17:28 GMT
I'm busy with a structured review of five wargame rulesets: LWTV Age of Hannibal, DBA 3.0, Art de la Guerre, Mortem & Gloriam and Hail Caesar, based on the 84 AD Mons Graupius battle (setup and idea here) (Yes, Brutus said I was ambitious, and Brutus is an honorable man) I first reviewed LWTV Age of Hannibal, derived from the Chipco Fantasy Rules. Now preparing DBA. Six questions. 1) Do you know other Mons Graupius DBA AAR reports? Please post the link. 2) What would be the difference between a DBA 2.2 and a DBA 3.0 Early Imperial Roman/Caledonian Mons Graupius battle? Would there be any major difference? 3) I want to try 3 different setups: a standard II/56 EIR vs a II/54 Scottish Army: 2 EIR vs 3 Scottish armies: and a 3 vs 3 big battle. Would the 2 vs 3 setup be fair, or do the Romans have no chance against such a majority? 4) I estimate that the Caledonians were badly positioned, in two separate lines and probably giving up their uphill advantage by storming towards the crowded flat plain. Agricola forced them to fight in a small area. According to Tacitus, the Caledonians were quickly demoralized. Major Roman victory. I don't want a guaranteed Roman victory (would be a boring game) but a certain starting disadvantage that the Caledonians have to deal with would be fair. How would you model that? Would you model that, anyway? 5) What's exactly the difference between the Triumph! system and DBA 3.0? I understand that Triumph is a WADBAG variant of DBA, is that correct? 6) What's your opinion about Art de la Guerre and/or M&G? Please comment below.
|
|
|
Post by paulhannah on May 14, 2022 12:58:25 GMT
First of all, "leftblank", welcome to Fanaticus. My humble suggestion is that you learn and play the games you listed yourself and draw your own conclusions. (I don't mean that to sound snarky.)
As an analogy, the opera critic for the New York Times doesn't ask opera-goers to critique the latest production by The Met. No, he attends a performance and writes his review based on what he saw and heard.
Enjoy the games!
|
|
|
Post by vodnik on May 14, 2022 14:10:03 GMT
...as a long time gamer of DBA 22 i use sometime the army lists of version 3 but not the Rules. I did start playing ADG with version 1. That time it was written in french only. Now we use version 4. Triumph i use with other people in Switzerland. To play ADG i have to go to Germany . There are more users for that rules. It is not so easy to compara that rule. DBA is anold good game but DBA 3 is in other game. ADG is a larger game and Triumph is modern version of DBA without the mistakes in the Rules caset of british english slang But i du nou use HC or Impetus. There are missing army listsof different nations...
|
|
leftblank
Munifex
"He was born with a gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad"
Posts: 5
|
Post by leftblank on May 15, 2022 10:25:20 GMT
I read a review about a rule that might impact my Mons Graupius simulation. A blogger wrote: "In 3.0, the Zone of Control just continues for forty millimeters straight out, because it removes any mention of intervening elements. Which changes the interaction between a lot of different elements– in fact, it changes nearly the whole game. Take, for example, the warband element. Warband’s claim to fame is that it can quick-kill heavy foot (such as spear, blade, and pike), but fights at just a +3. However, to mitigate this, warband receives rear support from warband, making it a +4 against those types. Now, warband is still fairly brittle against a blade line, which fights at a +5. One recoil is all it takes to make the fight a relatively easy +5/+3 for the blade. Warband is either going to win big or lose big against a blade line, and it really seems to be almost a toss-up.
Anyway, say that the blade line kills an element in the middle, leaving a nice big gap. In 2.2, the warband player could decide to swing a rear-supporting warband into that hole, sacrificing the support, but preventing the dreaded closing of the door. In 3.0, that is no longer an option, as the supporting warband is in the threat zone of the blade, even after a recoil. (They would be at exactly 40 millimeters, which is still considered inside the zone of control).
This is a fairly radical change, and I’m not sure why it’s there. I can only presume it was designed to further help prevent shifting, assuming it is what was intended."
Does this mean that in 3.0 the Caledonian warbands have less chance against the blades than in 2.2? Do the Romans indeed often have the +5 vs the +3 advantage? Warbands dead meat in 3.0?
|
|
|
Post by menacussecundus on May 15, 2022 12:29:20 GMT
"Say the blade line kills an element in the middle, leaving a nice big gap." But if the Wb are double ranked, it doesn't leave a nice big gap - or any gap at all. Under 2.2, a Wb element providing rear support was destroyed if the front element was destroyed. Under v3, it isn't, so the victorious Bd pursues into contact with the rear element.
Yes, Wb are brittle, but they're a long way from being dead meat.
|
|
|
Post by stevie on May 15, 2022 16:46:56 GMT
Indeed, as Menacussecunds said, if a Blade kills the first Warband, then it must pursue into the surviving rear Warband...sometimes leading to the Blade ending up being double-overlapped. And a combat factor of 5 minus 2 facing a combat factor of 3 with a ‘quick kill’...ouch! Unfortunately, although retired, I simply don’t have the time, or the patience, nor the inclination to learn half a dozen sets of rules to see which works best (just learning DBA 3.0 is enough as it is!).If I can get reasonably historical outcomes with DBA 3.0, in less than an hour, perhaps with the addition of the odd “House Rule” where necessary, then I’ll settle for that. Nonetheless I would be very interested in Leftbank’s conclusions in trying out various rule-sets, and see which gives ‘the better’, ‘most realistic’, and ‘most historical’ outcome by using the battle of Mons Graupius as a template. Do keep us informed as to how you get on.
|
|
|
Post by vodnik on May 15, 2022 19:08:53 GMT
...Mons Graupius is not the only battle to play DBA 3. For me it is a bad idea to start with. Try the crusades first. Start with ene set of rules only. After a month or two you can fight the same battles using an an other set of rules. So you can compare different rules. But in that time you could develop acertain tactic. Other gamers like us we try to winn a battle using one set of rules. The next problem is the time you will need for a game. Any version of DBA or Friumph needs one houer. ADG willneed 2 houers also DBMM with 240AP. But this aplies only if you know the rule. Using any version of DBA it aply only if you use a 12 element army. Dut there are much interesting bug battles with 36 elements per side...
|
|
leftblank
Munifex
"He was born with a gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad"
Posts: 5
|
Post by leftblank on Jun 19, 2022 22:07:45 GMT
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Jun 20, 2022 11:13:12 GMT
|
|