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Post by stevie on Apr 9, 2022 16:10:58 GMT
It is very easy to convert the II/33 Polybian Romans into the earlier II/10 Camillan Romans by simply swapping two 4Bd for two Spear (and swapping the two Psiloi Velites for Leves for purists). This has often tempted me to buy and paint a II/13 Samnite army, one of the staunchest foes of the early Republic, who according to the army list dialogue and Duncan Head’s “Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars” was the one Italian enemy that Rome most feared, requiring three major wars before these peoples were finally crushed. However, I have so far resisted this for one very simple reason...an army of 10 x 4Ax is utter crap! Oh yes, the Samnites are Hilly with an aggression of 1, but that doesn’t really help much. Come out of the Bad Going and the Roman CF of 5 cuts the Samnite CF of 3 to pieces. Up-slope on a Difficult Hill gives the Samnites the advantage...so the Romans won’t enter. The result? --> lots of drawn battles (or venture out into the open and commit suicide). But I have thought of a very simple solution to this dilemma, that requires no rule changes. I’m going to field a I/36d army of Oscan-Italian looking figures consisting of the following:- 1 x Cv, 10 x 3Wb, 1 x Ps, and just call it a Samnite army. My opponent can call them ‘Italian Hill Tribes’ if they like...but to me they’ll be Samnites! The enemies of army I/36d are pretty much the same as army II/13. They’ll be Hilly aggression 3 instead of Hilly aggression 1, but that’s ok. 3Wb can stand up to Blades in Good Going, and terrifies them in Bad Going. Army I/36d does only have one ally, but I don’t often use allies anyway. Now at last the Samnites CAN be the early Republics greatest foe... ....instead of being the weak wimpy push-overs they currently are.  |
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Post by Baldie on Apr 9, 2022 16:37:56 GMT
Yes cause all my Warband armies always do great!
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Post by stevie on Apr 9, 2022 16:42:44 GMT
A bad workman always blames his tool...I mean tools!  |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 9, 2022 19:11:10 GMT
No rules changes? Where is the real stevie???
3Ax were the fast moving troops and get a movement bonus without being impetuous. 4Ax can stand against heavy infantry and get... to beat fast troops on ties? Not sure how that helps against heavy infantry. Maybe side support from 4Ax/4Bl/Sp/4Pk would see them play their historical role?
Jim
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Post by paulisper on Apr 9, 2022 21:45:00 GMT
4Ax… the dog troop of DBA3.0 and, for me, it doesn’t represent what it should…. I would have it as cv of 4 against heavy foot (ie. Sp, Bd & Pk) and then maybe there’s a chance…
P
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Post by stevie on Apr 9, 2022 22:00:01 GMT
Hi Jim...let us look at the ‘facts’ that DBA 3.0 presents us with:-
3Wb can move 3 BW (4Ax cannot).
3Wb can ‘quick kill’ heavy foot (4Ax cannot).
3Wb can receive rear-support (4Ax cannot).
So any way you look at at it, 3Wb is much superior to 4Ax.
Now admittedly the 3Wb will pursue (but rear-support helps them),
they will recoil on an equal score (just 4 chances in 36 without overlaps),
and they are weaker against Cv (but the Romans only have two of these)...
...so all-in-all I’d sooner have 3Wb who can fight rather than 4Ax who’s
only purpose seems to be to stand around until they are slaughtered.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Apr 9, 2022 23:24:19 GMT
4Ax… the dog troop of DBA3.0 and, for me, it doesn’t represent what it should…. I would have it as cv of 4 against heavy foot (ie. Sp, Bd & Pk) and then maybe there’s a chance… P Our initial thoughts would be give them a +1 side support vs. enemy foot (like Sp) and a movement rate of 2.5BW in the open. |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 9, 2022 23:30:57 GMT
Hi stevie. I wasn't disagreeing with your choice. I was supporting your position on 4Ax.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by vodnik on Apr 10, 2022 7:54:27 GMT
...i don't care what troops I fight with as a Samnite. Either I use the DBA lists and can play in any international tournament, or I change the army composition and only play with friends who I have to explain to them why my army is set up like this. If I use an army I have assembled myself, my opponent may also assemble such an army. It is likely that such an army will not be allowed in public tournaments. But since I use Ax-armies most of the time, I've started to love them. Since I use Slavs very often, I've been used to the fact that armies are rated very differently since 2000 or even earlier. Also after the current political situation, for example Croatia or Serbia. But suddenly Slavic armies are distinguished by geographical origin. But the problem is not only with rules of PB. There are rules where all Slavs are Russians or don't exist at all.
I play in German-speaking countries. My wargamer language is German. Since i also use Triumph or “Art de la Guerre” (ADG), i often encounter similar problems, when I play Samniten with ADG rules, the starting position shifts drastically. Under Triumph, Samnites become true killing machines, but very vulnerable to cavalry...
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Post by stevie on Apr 10, 2022 10:46:07 GMT
I too like to ‘adjust’ a few of the army lists Vodnik. Here are some examples:- II/12 Alexandrian = I change the Hypaspists from being useless 4Ax to powerful 3Bd, as these were the very best and elite part of the Macedonian army, not the weakest! Also, 4Ax don’t pursue...but the 4PK and 3Kn do, and having 4Ax as the ‘link’ between these two creates a weak spot vulnerable to overlaps. Pursuing 3Bd nicely fills this gap. (I still use 4 Hypaspist figures, but change their battlefield behaviour to be that of 3Bd)II/32a Carthaginians = I think Hannibal should have his own sub army list, so when in Italy I change one of the Sp to Spanish 4Ax and the other two to 4Bd. This is on the grounds that the Spearmen after several victories became veterans, and they did rearmed themselves with captured Roman equipment. Otherwise it’s awkward to get 3 x Sp and 3 x 4Ax to look like the battle of Cannae. (I still use Spear figures, but change the Sp battlefield behaviour to be that of 4Bd).IV/62 HYW English & IV/64 French = I like to change the aggression factors so that the English have an aggression of 2 while the French have an aggression of 3. After all, at Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt it was the English, and not the French, that chose the battlefield, so the English should be the defenders. (If the French are the invaders, that doesn’t mean they have invaded England.
It just means they have decided to rashly attack the English position that day)And I do agree with you about tournaments...but that is the beauty of my idea. I can still field a completely legitimate I/36d army of 10 x 3Wb, and if my opponent wants to call them ‘Italian Hill Tribes’ then fine...but I’ll be calling them Samnites! (“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet” as Shakespeare would say )Mind you, I’d never take an army of 10 x 3Wb to a tournament. Far too vulnerable to an enemy with several Knight elements. But then again, I wouldn’t bring an army of 10 x 4Ax either... =================================================== Yes Tony and Jim, giving 4Ax side-support is a possibility. But this suggestion does have several inherent flaws to it. Rough Going: since there is no side-support in this type of terrain, you get the situation where Blades actively seek it out, while the 4Ax will actively avoid it. Isn’t that the exact opposite of what happened in reality? Deployment: because the 4Ax need other 4Ax next to them to get the side-support, it would be madness to have the Auxiliaries on the wings. You’d end up with the Romans placing their Auxilia together in the centre and their Blades on the wings. Isn’t that the exact opposite of what happened in reality? Later Edit:- Ah, re-reading Jim's post I see that he is suggesting that 4Ax gets side-support from other friendly solid foot (i.e. Sp/4Pk/4Bd and other 4Ax). Now that's a good idea... 👍 |
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Post by stevie on Apr 16, 2022 12:23:21 GMT
Call me a bit slow on the uptake by all means,
but I’m going to do the same with army II/39a.
My opponent is free to call my 6 x 3Bd troops ‘Celtiberians’ if they like,
but I’m just calling them ‘Spanish’, as I’m tired of being thrashed by Rome.
(Perfectly legal, as II/39b has the same enemies as II/39a...it’s only a name...)
Until we get some sort of widely accepted resolution to DBA that finally sorts out
the uselessness of auxiliary heavy armies facing Sp/Pk/Bd, this is my response.
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Mr.E
Beneficiarii
New comer to DBA
Posts: 64
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Post by Mr.E on Apr 23, 2022 6:53:07 GMT
Hello Stevie I also did like you, unhappy with the specific book 2 samnites army, I just paint up a 1/36 hill tribes ones and very happy with it to represent the mighty samnites.
The main issue for me isn't how the 4ax perform on table.
The problem come from the list,
Why the aren't rated 3bd? This is an army you can fear
Do not forget that samnites was the on from who Roman pickup the manipule system. Add more discipline keep etruscan heritage and you got astati/principes + triari.
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Post by stevie on Apr 23, 2022 8:39:48 GMT
Great minds think alike Mr.E.  Wading through the army lists is rather tedious, but I’ve found that I/8b Makkan to be a good substitute for I/8c Dilmun-Saba-Ma’in-Qatabans...same region, same aggression, same enemies, and same time period...but a better army. Of course, unless it is a special ‘themed’ tournament, the time period is immaterial, so players can simply avoid bringing armies that contain too many Auxiliaries in them. At home has more limitations, and many prefer to play against contemporary enemies. But at home we also have more freedom, and your suggestion to field the II/13 Samnites as 10 x 3Bd is a good one. Mind you, it all depends upon who your historical contemporary enemy will be. Against a Warband heavy army, I’d actually want lots of Auxiliaries...to avoid the Wb ‘quick-kill’. By the way, I’ve often thought the I/25, I/45, and I/51 Assyrian armies to be a bit weak compared to their historical reputation. These too would be more historical with more 3Bd and fewer Auxiliaries. Just a thought. |
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Mr.E
Beneficiarii
New comer to DBA
Posts: 64
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Post by Mr.E on Apr 23, 2022 18:16:57 GMT
Yes u are right, if u studies the list I to purple book the samnites are the weakest (at least on paper) the Latin the Umbria the apulian brutian etc seems more interesting to play. So there is really something wrong with this list.
Auxiliary are useful but mixed with other troop I did some good won with Phrygian or Yi Chinese barbarian. But a full army of auxilia isn't fun to play.
About the assyrian I just start to collect the figure to play the "herodotus" time conflicts. A lot of auxiliary in both friends and foes so hope it will be balanced.
There reputation was greatly made up with propaganda which seems assyrian master it.
Remenber French army in the 40 we was sold as the best on paper but finally the worst on field.
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Post by stevie on Apr 23, 2022 21:37:51 GMT
About the Assyrians I just started to collect the figures to play the "Herodotus" time conflicts. A lot of auxiliary in both friends and foes so hope it will be balanced. There reputation was greatly made up with propaganda which seems Assyrian mastered in. Remember French army in the 40 we was sold as the best on paper but finally the worst on field. Ah but the Assyrian's did conquer a large area, so it wasn’t just propaganda. I like to think of the Assyrian’s as being the Spartans of Mesopotamia. Not quite as militaristic as Sparta, and far more brutal, but they nonetheless terrified their neighbours. And unlike Sparta they did build a mighty empire. The fact that their empire was unstable was due to their political and domestic policies...which in no way diminishes their army’s performance on the battlefield. Another objection I have with the army lists is some of the aggression factors. I cannot think of a better way of making an army totally useless than by giving them masses of Auxiliaries or Psiloi troops and a high aggression factor, when their main historical opponents have loads of Spears and Pikemen (such as I/47 Illyrians and the I/63 Paionians having to fight Greek Hoplites and Macedonian Phalangites). Most of the time they find themselves on a totally flat billiard table with nowhere to hide! Talk about kicking a dog when it’s already down! Still, outside of tournaments, we adults, within the confines of our own homes, with the curtains drawn, can always indulge ourselves in “House Rules”. (“The first rule of House Rules is never talk about House Rules.
The second rule of House Rules is never to talk about House Rules...”
Ha, ha, ha!  ) |
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