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Post by zendor on Feb 13, 2022 9:39:21 GMT
Hi mates!
I have a serious need for one but significant modification in HOTT rules. Maybe you can help me. It seems to me that there is a bit of a lack of a light foot type in original HOTT 2.1. Something like Fast Auxilia with a touch of Psiloi. The reason is that quite often I need to add some lite aboriginal warriors or some fast demons as mass troops not as just Lurkers. Does anybody have an ideas or even experience of such modifications? How to harmoniously incorporate such a light foot in a original HOTT environment?
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Post by Baldie on Feb 13, 2022 10:36:51 GMT
Were they hobbits?
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Post by stevie on Feb 13, 2022 11:22:04 GMT
If you send your e-mail address via a private message to MedievalThomas, he will send you a copy of his D3H2…which combines DBA 3.0 and HoTT 2.1, allowing all the troop types to be used together. Alternatively, have a look at the first page of this:- static.wikia.nocookie.net/fanaticus-dba/images/3/33/DETAILED_CRIB_SHEETS_for_HOTT_2.1.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20190123092614 And here is what the above says:- The HoTT rules work quite well with DBA elements to make historical looking armies, but I find that one troop class, that of Auxiliaries, is sadly missing. What is needed is some sort of fast moving medium foot with a relatively low combat factor that is unaffected by any bad going terrain. HoTT Warbands work quite well in this role, but to be a little bit more historical, I suggest the following minor rule adjustments for this new troop class:- - Aux are the same as HoTT Warbands, but they neither give nor receive rear support, do not pursue, and they are not quick-killed by Behemoths (unless doubled). Ordinary unchanged HoTT Warbands still represent the fierce charging impetuous tribal warriors that made up the bulk of the Gallic and Germanic armies.
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Post by zendor on Feb 13, 2022 11:30:06 GMT
If you send your e-mail address via a private message to MedievalThomas, he will send you a copy of his D3H2…which combines DBA 3.0 and HoTT 2.1, allowing all the troop types to be used together. Alternatively, have a look at the first page of this:- static.wikia.nocookie.net/fanaticus-dba/images/3/33/DETAILED_CRIB_SHEETS_for_HOTT_2.1.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20190123092614 And here is what the above says:- The HoTT rules work quite well with DBA elements to make historical looking armies, but I find that one troop class, that of Auxiliaries, is sadly missing. What is needed is some sort of fast moving medium foot with a relatively low combat factor that is unaffected by any bad going terrain. HoTT Warbands work quite well in this role, but to be a little bit more historical, I suggest the following minor rule adjustments for this new troop class:- - Aux are the same as HoTT Warbands, but they neither give nor receive rear support, do not pursue, and they are not quick-killed by Behemoths (unless doubled). Ordinary unchanged HoTT Warbands still represent the fierce charging impetuous tribal warriors that made up the bulk of the Gallic and Germanic armies.Yes, thanks. I already have a D3H2 modification, but it seems too complex and sometimes unbalanced. I think I need something more elegant and light. I've already made a rough sketch of such a Light Foot, but I'm interested in whether folks here have their own mods on this particular topic?
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Post by zendor on Feb 13, 2022 11:32:36 GMT
Yes, I suppose hobbits army would looks more authentic with Light Foot type =)
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Post by zendor on Feb 14, 2022 9:47:52 GMT
If you send your e-mail address via a private message to MedievalThomas, he will send you a copy of his D3H2…which combines DBA 3.0 and HoTT 2.1, allowing all the troop types to be used together. Alternatively, have a look at the first page of this:- static.wikia.nocookie.net/fanaticus-dba/images/3/33/DETAILED_CRIB_SHEETS_for_HOTT_2.1.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20190123092614 And here is what the above says:- The HoTT rules work quite well with DBA elements to make historical looking armies, but I find that one troop class, that of Auxiliaries, is sadly missing. What is needed is some sort of fast moving medium foot with a relatively low combat factor that is unaffected by any bad going terrain. HoTT Warbands work quite well in this role, but to be a little bit more historical, I suggest the following minor rule adjustments for this new troop class:- - Aux are the same as HoTT Warbands, but they neither give nor receive rear support, do not pursue, and they are not quick-killed by Behemoths (unless doubled). Ordinary unchanged HoTT Warbands still represent the fierce charging impetuous tribal warriors that made up the bulk of the Gallic and Germanic armies.Thanks stevie, the text you provided prompted me to finnaly create my own version of the Light Foot type, as I would like to see it. I also took some features of Auxilia from DBA 3. Here's what I got: LIGHT FOOTTroop type: foot; Cost: 2 pts; Stand: 40x20mm; Number of miniatures: 2 or 3; Combat modifiers: +3 against infantry and citadel / +2 against others; Tactical Move Distances: Entirely along a road: 400p; Good going: 400p; Bad going: 400p; River: 100p TACTICAL FACTORS (page 22) -2 Count this factor (once only) if any of the following apply, except vs. a stronghold:
- If any type except shooters, warband, lurkers, beasts, light foot or stronghold
is in bad going on or off-road (whether in close combat, bespelling, bespelled, shooting or shot at). COMBAT OUTCOME (page 23) If its total is less than that of the enemy but more than half:Behemoths --- Destroyed by light foot. Flee 600p from magician, dragon or artillery. If not, recoil. Light Foot --- Destroyed by knights in good going or by beasts in bad going. If not, recoil. Comments.I made them a little faster than warbands especially on bad going (400p) due to their more skirmishing style. But also because of this, they are a little weaker in combat against anyone who is not foot type, so only +2 against all others except foot. I gave them the ability to quick-kill Behemoths following DBA 3, where Auxilia and Psiloi can quick-kill Elephants. Also this opens an interesting way of creating light and small units of mad Monster-slayers. Perhaps this will a little weaken the position of Behemoths, but I hope not so much (here I need to playtest it). I made them vulnerable to knights, also in the manner of DBA 3, and vulnerable to wild animals (beasts), which can tear apart light and few troops in the forest. So I hope all this substantiates their cost of 2 points, but If not, I have another idea to give them the ability to flee 300p from shooting when they are doubled. Any suggestions are welcome.
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Post by stevie on Feb 14, 2022 10:57:49 GMT
I like it Zendor.
Although I would prefer HoTT Auxiliaries to have a combat factor of 3-3 (in DBA Aux are the same as Cav), and limit their speed to 300 paces (having them moving faster than mounted Knights seems a little excessive). They’ll still be able to ‘break-off’ from heavier foot in Good Going, as they’ll be quicker.
Other than that, I like it. 👍
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Post by hobgoblin on Feb 14, 2022 12:20:16 GMT
I wonder if they might prove overpowered relative to Behemoths given the HOTT combat factors (Behemoths +4 vs infantry). That makes the Light Foot more powerful than their counterparts in DBA against elephants because HOTT Behemoths are +4/+5 (unlike elephants and D3H2 Behemoths, which are +5/+4). So Light Foot only need a little bit of luck to do away with Behemoths.
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Post by zendor on Feb 14, 2022 12:42:11 GMT
Thanks stevie , I agree that the movement can be reduced to 300p, but I would not want to give LF +3 vs all because they will immediately become a real nightmare for Behemoths (as hobgoblin said). With +2 vs +4, LF can perform attempt to quick kill Behemoths, and this will not be too much I suppose (actually it'll be interesting combat). But +3 vs +4 with quick-kill is a serious bid to win and as a result it can too much weaken the role of Behemoths in the game. However, I'll try it, and as I said before, if 2 pts is too expensive for such a Light Foot, I would better give them the ability to flee 300p from shooting when they are doubled. I'll wait a little for some other suggestions, if any, and then prepare ver.2 of LF.
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Post by stevie on Feb 14, 2022 16:33:56 GMT
I think all of you are right. Having a combat factor of 3 and a ‘quick kill’ against Behemoths is too much. It should be one or the other…not both.
I like to have HoTT Auxiliaries as a sort of weaker type of Warband (without pursuit, without rear-support, and without the vulnerability to Behemoths).
I envision them as lobbing masses of javelins at very close range, and only charging in if their javelin barrage disrupts or disorders the enemy, like Peltasts did historically.
Having the Warband ‘quick kill’ against HoTT Blades and Spears gives them a slight chance against these heavy foot, even without rear-support… …especially as Blades in HoTT don’t pursue, making them more powerful.
(In DBA, Auxiliaries stand no chance whatsoever against Blades and Spears, even if the DBA Blades do pursue)
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Post by zendor on Feb 14, 2022 22:26:00 GMT
Interesting fact. In D3H2 Behemoths have +5 vs Foot and +4 vs others. Below, in the Traditional HOTT Combat table (page 18) Behemoths also have a +5 vs Foot. We all know that in HOTT Behemoths have +4 vs Foot. So, what is it, a typo? Who knows...
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Post by martin on Feb 15, 2022 8:40:17 GMT
Interesting fact. In D3H2 Behemoths have +5 vs Foot and +4 vs others. Below, in the Traditional HOTT Combat table (page 18) Behemoths also have a +5 vs Foot. We all know that in HOTT Behemoths have +4 vs Foot. So, what is it, a typo? Who knows... Possibly the D3H2 author changing factors to make a Behemoth equivalent in factors to a DBA El, I would imagine.
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Post by zendor on Feb 22, 2022 10:30:07 GMT
Well, this is the version 2 of my Light foot troops type. As always any suggestions are welcome. LIGHT FOOT v.2Troop type: foot; Cost: 2 pts; Stand: 40x20mm; Number of miniatures: 2 or 3; Combat modifiers: +3 against infantry and citadel / +2 against others; Tactical Move Distances: Entirely along a road: 400p; Good going: 300p; Bad going: 300p; River: 100p TACTICAL FACTORS (page 22) -2 Count this factor (once only) if any of the following apply, except vs. a stronghold: - If any type except shooters, warband, lurkers, beasts, light foot or stronghold
is in bad going on or off-road (whether in close combat, bespelling, bespelled, shooting or shot at).
COMBAT OUTCOME (page 23) If its total is less than that of the enemy but more than half: Behemoths --- Destroyed by light foot. Flee 600p from magician, dragon or artillery. If not, recoil. Light Foot --- Destroyed by knights in good going or by beasts in bad going. If not, recoil. If its total is half or less than half that of the enemy: Light Foot --- Flee 300p from shooting. Comments.I made them as fast as warbands due to their skirmish style moving. But due to loose formation and often light weapons they are a little weaker in combat against anyone who is not foot type, so only +2 against all others except foot. I gave them the ability to quick-kill Behemoths following DBA 3, where Auxilia and Psiloi can quick-kill Elephants in a provocation style combat (this opens an interesting way of creating light units of mad monster-slayers). Perhaps this will weaken the position of Behemoths a little, but I hope not so much (here I need to playtest it). I made them vulnerable to knights, also in the manner of DBA 3, and vulnerable to wild animals (beasts), which can tear apart light and few troops in the forests. Finally I gave them the ability to flee 300p from shooting when they are doubled, which corresponds to their flexible formations. I hope all this substantiates their cost of 2 pts. P.S. However, if they still look weak and do not justify the price of 2 pts, I have an additional idea to give them the ability to ignore the rear support factor of the enemy stand.
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Post by medievalthomas on Mar 18, 2022 18:46:46 GMT
If you could help me with the complexity and imbalance issues in D3H2 it would be greatly appreciated. I monitor it constantly and work hard to fix any issue.
As to complexity its based on DBA 3.0 supposedly the least complex full treatment of medievals available (I understand presentation and keeping Phil's style is an issue).
In any case Light Foot are well handled in DBA 3.0 and easy to import to HOTT.
Combat Factor: +2 v. all. Fast (Recoil on Equals from Solid). Movement Allowance: 3BW. If doubled they Flee instead of being Destroyed except against Mounted in terrain Mounted count as Good (except El, Behemoth, Chariots), Aux, Bows, Shooters, other Light Foot. Destroy on More: Behemoths and Elephants. (This would be better if it were Cry Havoc - Destroy on Equals.) Shocked (Destroyed on More) by Knights, Cav, Camelry if in Good. Ignore corner overlaps. Cost 1 AP. (Lot of rules but that's how Phil does stuff - for more elegant version see A Game of Knights & Knaves). Staying with DBA 3.0 rules though means DBA 3.0 players already know the rules and they have been playtested.
In K&K we give all Lights ability to Flee v. Shooting as you propose above.
Finally I would like to know what Elements you have found imbalanced in D3H2 as we work very hard to prevent this issue.
TomT
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