Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms

Haardrada
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Posts: 1,360

Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 1, 2021 12:58:30 GMT via mobile stevie likes this

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Post by Haardrada on Aug 1, 2021 12:58:30 GMT

Whilst taking a "painting holiday" due to Carpal tunnel I kept myself busy doing little projects to avert the boredom and keep my interest in DBA.One of the projects was to unravel the complicated History of this period and pin down which army represents which state in the timeline.

Here is my offering ...

Eastern Jin.317-420AD II/79b
Lui Song.420-479AD. II/79b
Southern Qi.479-502AD. II/79b
Liang.502-557AD. II/79b
Chen.557-589AD. II/79b
Western Liang.555-587AD. II/79b

Former Liang.320-376AD(Jin Vassel).II/21b
Later Liang.386-403AD. Ti. II/21b
Northern Liang.397-439AD.S.Xiongnu.II/38b
Southern Liang.397-414AD.other Xianbei.II/61c

Former Qin.351-394AD. Ti. II/21c
Later Qin.384-417AD.Chiang. II/21b
Western Qin.385-431AD.other Xianbei.II/61c
(Ruled by Later Qin 400-409AD).

Former Yan.337-370AD.Murong Xianbei.II/61b
Later Yan.407-409AD. Murong Xianbei.II/61b

Northern Yan.407-436AD*.Murong Xianbei.II/61b
Southern Yan.398-410AD. Murong Xianbei.II/61b
Western Yan.384-394AD. Murong Xianbei.II/61b
(*possibly 409AD).

Former(Han)Zhoa.304-329AD. S.Xiongnu.II/38b
Later Zhoa.319-351AD.(Jie) S.Xiongnu.II/38b

Cheng Han.303(304)-347AD. Ti. II/21b
Xia.407-431AD S.Xiongnu. II/38b
Ran Wei.350-352AD. S.Xiongnu**. II/38b
Zhai Wei.S.Xiongnu. II/38b
Chouchi.388-392AD.(Dingliing)S.Xiongnu.II/38b
Doun Qi.350-356AD. other Xianbei. II/61c
Qaio Shu.405-413AD. Chinese. II/79b

**Ran Min(of Chinese birth,but served as a Xiongnu General) massacred Xiongnu and other ethnics, but the main part of the army remained infantry that fought in forrests.Although claiming to be a Chinese Regime,the army was still composed of Chinese,Ti & Ch'iang.Thus the army remains Southern Hsuing nu.

Huan Chu.403(401)-404AD. Chinese. II/79b
Tuyuhun.284-670AD. Xianbei. II/61a
Dai.310-376AD. other Xianbei. II/61c

Northern Wei.386-534AD.(Tuoba)Xianbei.II/79a

Juan Juan.330-555AD. Xianbei***. II/38c

***Although listed as Hsuing nu in the army lists the Juan Juan are in fact Xianbei tribes.

Of further note is the only evidence of war wagons used by Southern Dynasty Chinese during this period was by Lui Yu.
Southern Tribesmen were not available to more Northern states but could be replaced by Ch'iang or Ti tribesmen.

Any further information is welcome 😊

Last Edit: Aug 1, 2021 15:32:45 GMT by Haardrada

timurilank Emperor Posts: 3,650	Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 1, 2021 17:48:24 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by timurilank on Aug 1, 2021 17:48:24 GMT Unfortunately, my current Chinese research is of the later period to include the 17th century. If I stumble upon anything of interest, I will pass it on.
	“It’s a good day for the crows”.

Haardrada
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Posts: 1,360

Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 1, 2021 19:07:37 GMT via mobile

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Post by Haardrada on Aug 1, 2021 19:07:37 GMT

Aug 1, 2021 17:48:24 GMT timurilank said:

Unfortunately, my current Chinese research is of the later period to include the 17th century.
If I stumble upon anything of interest, I will pass it on.

We all have our areas of interest.lol
I thought this info could be of help to anyone interested in the Sixteen Kingdoms period,which is a bit complicated to put it mildly.Some of the armies are quite interesting in their own right and offer a varied and colourful choice.

It's still work in progress for Indian and Steppe armies which I'll post when completed.

Tony Aguilar Senator Praecō Posts: 1,250	Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 2, 2021 9:40:22 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 2, 2021 9:40:22 GMT So WWg would only be appropriate in the Lui Song Dynasty... Now can you find out where Barker put my nerfed Liang Dynasty Elephants?
	Check out my DBA videos: www.youtube.com/channel/UCbRAe5rGG3lYIHXFgkrC3wQ?view_as=subscriber

Haardrada
Senator

Posts: 1,360

Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 2, 2021 10:37:19 GMT via mobile

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Post by Haardrada on Aug 2, 2021 10:37:19 GMT

Aug 2, 2021 9:40:22 GMT Tony Aguilar said:

So WWg would only be appropriate in the Lui Song Dynasty...
Now can you find out where Barker put my nerfed Liang Dynasty Elephants?

There are hints they were used at other times Tony,they were possibly used by or against Shi Le (Southern Hsuing nu) but I cannot find any sources to back it up.
Likewise with the nerfed Ellie's if you can find trusted sources that endource their use by that army in that time period,then they should be accepted on merit.

Although not the best source in the world Wikipedia does sometimes point you in the right direction....

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephants_in_ancient_China#:~:text=4%20Further%20reading-,Warfare,soldiers%2C%20but%20the%20attempt%20failed.

Claims the use of Elephants in China by the Liang Period and by armies of the Three Kingdoms period.The one army noted by DBA to have them is the Southern Han which is a varient of the Later T'ang List...but is this only because the army had a permenant elephant corps?

Soldiers of the Dragon by CJ Peers (page 95) does quote the use of a handful of elephants in battle in 555AD but notes that this was an isolated incident.
The Southern Han evidence (page 122)states that the Liang successfully used elephants in battle on several occasions until defeated by a Sung invasion in 970AD when they failed to stand up to the crossbowmen and were routed.

Last Edit: Aug 2, 2021 11:15:36 GMT by Haardrada

stevie
Emperor

Posts: 3,195

Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 2, 2021 11:02:30 GMT

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Post by stevie on Aug 2, 2021 11:02:30 GMT

Aug 2, 2021 10:37:19 GMT Haardrada said:

Aug 2, 2021 9:40:22 GMT Tony Aguilar said:

So WWg would only be appropriate in the Lui Song Dynasty...
Now can you find out where Barker put my nerfed Liang Dynasty Elephants?

There are hints they were used at other times Tony, they were possibly used by or against Shi Le (Southern Hsuing nu) but I cannot find any sources to back it up.
Likewise with the nerfed Ellie's if you can find trusted sources that endorse their use by that army in that time period, then they should be accepted on merit.

Would the DBMM army list II/79 Southern Dynasties (317-589 AD)
be considered a trusted source Haardrada?

However, having even a single DBMM Elephant element is probably too
much for just a DBA 12 element-a-side army.
(See fanaticus.boards.net/thread/3056/converting-dbmm-army-lists-use )

Haardrada
Senator

Posts: 1,360

Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 2, 2021 11:24:28 GMT via mobile stevie likes this

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Post by Haardrada on Aug 2, 2021 11:24:28 GMT

Aug 2, 2021 11:02:30 GMT stevie said:

Aug 2, 2021 10:37:19 GMT Haardrada said:

There are hints they were used at other times Tony, they were possibly used by or against Shi Le (Southern Hsuing nu) but I cannot find any sources to back it up.
Likewise with the nerfed Ellie's if you can find trusted sources that endorse their use by that army in that time period, then they should be accepted on merit.

Would the DBMM army list II/79 Southern Dynasties (317-589 AD)
be considered a trusted source Haardrada?

However, having even a single DBMM Elephant element is probably too
much for just a DBA 12 element-a-side army.
(See fanaticus.boards.net/thread/3056/converting-dbmm-army-lists-use )

You beat me to it Stevie as I was editing and updating my post adding information from Soldiers of the Dragon.lol

You would think if Ellie's are allowed in DBMM then they should be in DBA,but seeing as CJ Peers mentions that only a handful were used on a one-off occasion ,the powers that be probably decided to omit it rather than see every Southern Dynasty army running around with war wagons and an elephant.😂

goragrad Senator Posts: 1,017	Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 5, 2021 0:08:25 GMT Haardrada likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by goragrad on Aug 5, 2021 0:08:25 GMT Nice breakdown. Particularly as I already have Han and Three Kingdoms and picked up figures for Northern and Southern not long ago.

Haardrada
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Posts: 1,360

Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 5, 2021 8:06:56 GMT via mobile

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Post by Haardrada on Aug 5, 2021 8:06:56 GMT

Aug 5, 2021 0:08:25 GMT goragrad said:

Nice breakdown.

Particularly as I already have Han and Three Kingdoms and picked up figures for Northern and Southern not long ago.

I started a different way, firstly I bought a Hsuing nu army which I extended to do Juan Juan.I then bought the Southern Hsuing nu and like them so much I added Former Ch'in,Murong Hsien-pi and Southern Dynasty Chinese.I then found I had enough figures to morph the Murong Hsien-pi into T'u-yu-hun and I'm shy a pack of archers to finish a Northern Dynasty army.

goragrad
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Posts: 1,017

Chinese Sixteen Kingdoms Aug 6, 2021 21:41:56 GMT

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Post by goragrad on Aug 6, 2021 21:41:56 GMT

Was always interested in Asian military history and equipment. College library had a book on the tomb of the First Emperor which focused me on the Ch'in. Attempted a reconstruction of the infantry armor which lead me to conclude that the plates for the lamellar were either depicted larger than they actually were or were curved as using the plates in number and size based on the statues didn't work (was very interested in later years to see the stone lamellar armors with many more much smaller plates). I was correct though in my deduction at the time in that the armor was lammellar (based in part on having read H. Russell Robinson's Oriental Armor, pity the tomb was found after he had written the book it as he would have recognized that immediately) with laced plates rather than rivets as so many articles stated.

The impetus to actually get my Chinese armies on the table was finally picking up a painted DBM Han Army off Ebay. Turned out to be a fair bit of Ch'in in it, but gave me the incentive to paint up figures I had previously purchased and touch up and base some miscellaneous painted elements also picked up on Ebay.

Post by Haardrada on Aug 1, 2021 12:58:30 GMT

Post by timurilank on Aug 1, 2021 17:48:24 GMT

Post by Haardrada on Aug 1, 2021 19:07:37 GMT

Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 2, 2021 9:40:22 GMT

Post by Haardrada on Aug 2, 2021 10:37:19 GMT

Post by stevie on Aug 2, 2021 11:02:30 GMT

Post by Haardrada on Aug 2, 2021 11:24:28 GMT

Post by goragrad on Aug 5, 2021 0:08:25 GMT

Post by Haardrada on Aug 5, 2021 8:06:56 GMT

Post by goragrad on Aug 6, 2021 21:41:56 GMT