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Post by stevie on Jul 7, 2021 15:46:13 GMT
With respect - as they say - phrasing the question in that way prejudges - and hence prejudices - the answer. The real question is "Is the Bd in diagram 1 destroyed if the El loses the combat but isn't doubled?" Hmmm…isn’t that just splitting hairs? Ho kay then…If the El loses the combat but isn’t doubled, it will recoil. Now look at diagram 1.  But here’s a further thought… …what if the Blade were at 45° with its front right corner touching the Elephant rear? Would the Elephant not be able to recoil, so it and not the Blade will be destroyed? What about if it were at 30°, or 20°, or just a mere 5° off of being lined-up? Would the Elephant still not be able to recoil, so it and not the Blade will be destroyed? (Which seems a gimmicky way of keeping the Blade alive!)Or do only elements at a strict 90° to the Elephant’s rear prevent it from recoiling? ---Where do you draw the line!--- Perhaps it’s better to just follow the Elephant recoiling rule exactly as it’s written:- “If the recoiling element is Elephants, all friends or enemy met are destroyed… ... no matter which way they are facing.” |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 7, 2021 16:04:38 GMT
It's not splitting hairs to say it's a loaded question, stevie.
I agree entirely that it doesn't matter which way the element is facing. The issue is what does "met" mean? Does it mean the El has to move and then bump into the other element or does it include the situation where the two start in contact?
Two schools of thought and I have no idea which Phil intended, although, if it is the latter, it seems a strange use of the verb "to meet".
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Post by ronisan on Jul 7, 2021 16:13:48 GMT
Fine Tony.  I’ll be interested in the reasoning why the Blade is destroyed by the recoiling Elephant in this picture:-  …because “If the recoiling element is Elephants, all friends or enemy met are destroyed.” And once the Blade is destroyed, it’s no longer there to be an obstacle to the recoiling Elephant. But the Blade is not destroyed by the recoiling Elephant in this picture, but the Elephant is instead:-  …because “If the recoiling element is Elephants, all friends or enemy met are destroyed.” And once the Blade is destroyed, it’s no longer there to be an obstacle to the recoiling Elephant. (Elephants don’t recoil like other troops do…they have their own special recoiling rules)With respect - as they say - phrasing the question in that way prejudges - and hence prejudices - the answer. The real question is "Is the Bd in diagram 1 destroyed if the El loses the combat but isn't doubled?" Hello, the Bd is eliminated in both pictures if the El recoils. The rules say: „ Surviving elephants (with means not being doubled / recoiling elephants!) finish their recoil.“ That means, nothing and no one prevents Elephants from recoiling! They go on trampling!… even other El elements. In other words … behind an element of El there is a 1BW x 1BW „trampling zone“. Any element partially or fully inside will be destroyed by the recoiling El … even other elements of El. And if an El recoils into another El, both are destroyed. See the rules: „If 2 Elephant elements meet, both are destroyed.“ Cheers, Ronald |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 7, 2021 17:05:18 GMT
Hi Hoping someone can answer this. The other day a friend and I played a game of DBA24. At one point there were two enemy El ( side by side in a line) coming towards me. I then managed a flank contact with a Cv on the left-most EL which then had to turn to face. In doing so its rear edge was now up against the righthand El's side edge. My Cv then scored a 6-1 leading to the El having to recoil. So....are both enemy elephants destroyed due to the recoil or as the recoiling El was touching the others base and had no room to start its recoil only it was destroyed? I thought both were destroyed at the time but looking at it now I think only the reciler should have gone to the great savannah in the sky.... , The exact event happened in the recently reported Rome vs. Sassanid game. One of an elephant group turned to face Roman auxilia. Combat scores were not as spectacular, but the result was the same. A happy meal with double portions for the victors. |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jul 7, 2021 17:31:28 GMT
With respect - as they say - phrasing the question in that way prejudges - and hence prejudices - the answer. The real question is "Is the Bd in diagram 1 destroyed if the El loses the combat but isn't doubled?" Hello, the Bd is eliminated in both pictures if the El recoils. The rules say: „ Surviving elephants (with means not being doubled / recoiling elephants!) finish their recoil.“ That means, nothing and no one prevents Elephants from recoiling! They go on trampling!… even other El elements. In other words … behind an element of El there is a 1BW x 1BW „trampling zone“. Any element partially or fully inside will be destroyed by the recoiling El … even other elements of El. And if an El recoils into another El, both are destroyed. See the rules: „If 2 Elephant elements meet, both are destroyed.“ Cheers, Ronald The way we play (and have seen played) .... In the first example the El recoils and the blade gets eliminated. In the second example only the elephant dies because it is already in contact see below. "A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge, friends it cannot pass through or push back, enemy or a city, fort or camp ends its move there. An element already in such contact
with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead."If there was a frog's hair of space between the El and the blade in the second example then the El would not die and trample the Blade instead because it is not in such contact. Mitch likes to remember this by saying if the El has a "running start" it tramples and doesn't die. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 7, 2021 17:50:37 GMT
Hello, the Bd is eliminated in both pictures if the El recoils. The rules say: „ Surviving elephants (with means not being doubled / recoiling elephants!) finish their recoil.“ That means, nothing and no one prevents Elephants from recoiling! They go on trampling!… even other El elements. In other words … behind an element of El there is a 1BW x 1BW „trampling zone“. Any element partially or fully inside will be destroyed by the recoiling El … even other elements of El. And if an El recoils into another El, both are destroyed. See the rules: „If 2 Elephant elements meet, both are destroyed.“ Cheers, Ronald I take "Surviving elephants finish their recoil" to mean that a recoiling elephant which isn't destroyed (either by hitting another elephant or because it is recoiling from close combat against the defenders of a city or fort) doesn't stop if it hits any other kind of element - friend or foe - but moves its full recoil distance. This doesn't help with an interpretation of the word "met". However, recoiling the "recoiling from close combat" raises another point. If an elephant recoils from close combat with a city or fort and has another element less than 1 BW behind it, what happens? Is the El destroyed immediately? Or does it recoil, crush whatever is behind it and then expire? Frankly, I have no idea. Either interpretation strikes me as possible. |
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Post by Haardrada on Jul 7, 2021 18:08:21 GMT
How is this handled in DBMM?
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Post by stevie on Jul 7, 2021 18:27:48 GMT
In the first example the El recoils and the blade gets eliminated. In the second example only the elephant dies because it is already in contact see below. "A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge, friends it cannot pass through or push back, enemy or a city, fort or camp ends its move there. An element already in such contact
with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead."Ah, but Tony, you are missing two very important factors. Firstly, Page 12, paragraph 4, Recoiling, is split into two sections… …and the dividing line is the phrase “If the recoiling element is not Elephants…”. Everything above this phrase concerns recoiling Elephants. Everything below this phrase concerns other recoiling troops. And “If the recoiling element is Elephants, all friends or enemy met are destroyed” comes at the very start of the paragraph, before everything else, so takes priority. Secondly, Page 12, paragraph 5, Recoiling, says:- “...friends it cannot pass through…” But Elephants CAN pass through any element, no matter which way they are facing… …although those passed through will be trampled and destroyed (see my diagram 1). The rules cannot be mixed together and applied in any order a player wishes. And if “recoiling elephants destroy those met” is ignored, then what is there to stop a player from using the Interpenetration rules on page 9 where it says:- “(a) mounted troops can recoil through any friends (except Pk, Hd, and El)”, and claim that their Elephants can pass though friends instead of trampling them? |
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Post by stevie on Jul 7, 2021 18:42:00 GMT
If an elephant recoils from close combat with a city or fort and has another element less than 1 BW behind it, what happens? Is the El destroyed immediately? Or does it recoil, crush whatever is behind it and then expire? Frankly, I have no idea. Either interpretation strikes me as possible. I think the FAQ can answer that one. “Q: Does an elephant that is contacted both to the front and also to the flank or rear by enemy front edges (“flanked” or “reared”), recoil and destroy the elements behind it? A: No. Elephants that receive a recoil result with enemy in front edge contact to both their front and to their flank or rear are destroyed instead of recoiling. This is the same as all other elements.” In other words, an Elephant that is destroyed (by being doubled, recoiling from shooting Art, by Ax, Ps, LH, by being attacked in the flank or rear, or recoiling from an assault on a City or Fort gate), is immediately removed from the table, and never gets the chance to recoil. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 7, 2021 19:20:28 GMT
If an elephant recoils from close combat with a city or fort and has another element less than 1 BW behind it, what happens? Is the El destroyed immediately? Or does it recoil, crush whatever is behind it and then expire? Frankly, I have no idea. Either interpretation strikes me as possible. I think the FAQ can answer that one. “Q: Does an elephant that is contacted both to the front and also to the flank or rear by enemy front edges (“flanked” or “reared”), recoil and destroy the elements behind it? A: No. Elephants that receive a recoil result with enemy in front edge contact to both their front and to their flank or rear are destroyed instead of recoiling. This is the same as all other elements.” In other words, an Elephant that is destroyed (by being doubled, recoiling from shooting Art, by Ax, Ps, LH, by being attacked in the flank or rear, or recoiling from an assault on a City or Fort gate), is immediately removed from the table, and never gets the chance to recoil. That's interesting, stevie. So if the Bd in your diagram 1 were blue rather than red......... |
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Post by stevie on Jul 7, 2021 19:53:50 GMT
That's interesting, stevie. So if the Bd in your diagram 1 were blue rather than red......... Yep…if an Elephant being attacked in the rear (or the flank) has to recoil, it is destroyed instead. Page 12, first paragraph, Destroyed Elements:- “An element that has an enemy front-edge in contact with its side or rear-edge is destroyed by recoiling, being pushed back, fleeing, or being in a column whose front element is destroyed." (See figures 19b, 19c and 20a to 20f, as well as the FAQ).After all, when the front rank of a Pike or Warband column is destroyed, it doesn’t recoil first before being removed, pushing back the second rank. Being brown bread, it’s just whisked straight off the table…and the rear rank doesn’t move a muscle. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 7, 2021 20:38:53 GMT
So there are exceptions to ronisan's "trampling zone". (Or at least an exception.)
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Post by stevie on Jul 7, 2021 22:56:52 GMT
So there are exceptions to ronisan's "trampling zone". (Or at least an exception.) Actually, Ronisan is right ---> “Dead Elephants trample no men!” But the FAQ mentions a few exceptions where recoiling El do no damage:- Q: What happens if my recoiling Elephants contact elements in a Hamlet or Edifice? A: Elephants that recoil into Elephants in a Hamlet or Edifice destroy them (and are destroyed) as outlined above. Other elements are usually not destroyed. They are pushed back or block recoil as per the standard recoil rules. Elements in Cities, Forts and Camps usually aren’t destroyed unless they are other Elephants. I wonder if I can make my position absolutely clear. What have all these diagrams got in common?  Well, I’ll tell you…the Elephants in ALL these pictures have no room to recoil. So according to the “can’t recoil = destroyed” rule, ALL these El will be lost… …even those in pictures (4) and (5). Fortunately, Phil Barker (bless him) has a rule that says “Recoiling El destroy everyone they meet”… …so NONE of the recoiling El shown here will be destroyed, but those behind them will be trampled. So whatever interpretation people prefer, do please try to be consistent in its use! If (1), (2), and (3) CAN'T recoil, then neither can (4) and (5) (because there isn’t room). And if (4) and (5) CAN recoil, then so can (1), (2), and (3) (“Recoiling El destroy all they meet”). (Players often complain about ‘Barkerese’.Well what chance has he got when people can’t even understand something as simple as “Recoiling El destroy everyone they meet”! 🤪) |
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Post by ronisan on Jul 8, 2021 6:23:23 GMT
Hello, the Bd is eliminated in both pictures if the El recoils. The rules say: „ Surviving elephants (with means not being doubled / recoiling elephants!) finish their recoil.“ That means, nothing and no one prevents Elephants from recoiling! They go on trampling!… even other El elements. In other words … behind an element of El there is a 1BW x 1BW „trampling zone“. Any element partially or fully inside will be destroyed by the recoiling El … even other elements of El. And if an El recoils into another El, both are destroyed. See the rules: „If 2 Elephant elements meet, both are destroyed.“ Cheers, Ronald The way we play (and have seen played) .... In the first example the El recoils and the blade gets eliminated. In the second example only the elephant dies because it is already in contact see below. "A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge, friends it cannot pass through or push back, enemy or a city, fort or camp ends its move there. An element already in such contact
with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead."If there was a frog's hair of space between the El and the blade in the second example then the El would not die and trample the Blade instead because it is not in such contact. Mitch likes to remember this by saying if the El has a "running start" it tramples and doesn't die. Hello Tony, but why are you ignoring the five words in the rules which say: „Surviving elephants finish their recoil.“? "An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead." means that an element in such a situation is trapped by the enemy element in its back! -> Recoiler is unable to (start it's) recoil -> Recoiler is in trouble -> Recoiler is eliminated. But an element of elephant can't be hindered to recoil by an element (friendly or enemy) in its back. It always finishes its recoil. So - Recoiling El recoils -> Element behind in its (recoiling) way is in trouble (Or do you think e.g. a Ps flank edge is able to "stop" a recoiling El? ) -> Element behind is eliminated (if the element behind is also El, both El are eliminated). Cheers, Ronald |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 8, 2021 7:36:19 GMT
Hello Tony, but why are you ignoring the five words in the rules which say: „Surviving elephants finish their recoil.“? "An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead." means that an element in such a situation is trapped by the enemy element in its back! -> Recoiler is unable to (start it's) recoil -> Recoiler is in trouble -> Recoiler is eliminated. But an element of elephant can't be hindered to recoil by an element (friendly or enemy) in its back. It always finishes its recoil. So - Recoiling El recoils -> Element behind in its (recoiling) way is in trouble (Or do you think e.g. a Ps flank edge is able to "stop" a recoiling El? ) -> Element behind is eliminated (if the element behind is also El, both El are eliminated). Cheers, Ronald Ronald, Tony will doubtless answer for himself, but I think his response may be along the lines that a surviving elephant is, by definition, one which hasn't been destroyed. So an elephant which gets a recoil result but which has an enemy element in front edge contact with its side edge doesn't recoil. (Incidentally, you will presumably have seen that the FAQ says that an elephant which has an enemy front edge in contact with its rear edge doesn't recoil either? In other words, the wording of the preceding section - DESTROYED ELEMENTS - trumps what is said in the section on RECOILING OR BEING PUSHED BACK.) A recoiling elephant which meets another elephant is destroyed. A recoiling elephant which meets any other element destroys that element but survives the impact - making it a surviving elephant - and then goes on to complete its recoil rather than ending its move at the point of contact. Menacus S |
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