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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 7:14:32 GMT
Post by snowcat on Jun 7, 2021 7:14:32 GMT
It's primarily the rear support that's the issue. Remove that and fix up their CF if required, and you have something that makes more sense.
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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 9:33:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by Haardrada on Jun 7, 2021 9:33:53 GMT
I don't see the issue with the rear support, 3Pk only receive the bonus in good going. In bad going a rear rank is useless and they receive a further -2 combat modifier.
Maybe it's the definition or understanding of the troop type that it maybe the problem?.. "Irregular Hillman with long Spears used in both hands and mostly lacking shields". This accounts for Picts & North Welsh and also Hittites & Koreans. But others such as Akkadians, Summerians & some later Chinese armies possibly partially in response to Chariots or Cavalry?
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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 10:34:55 GMT
Post by stevie on Jun 7, 2021 10:34:55 GMT
On the other hand - if you don't mind cheesy play with these boys (I sit back and await the brutal but well deserved attacks from Stevie and Snowcat) - with such a long strike range (3BW) you can form a single element deep line with your 3Pk and then from just inside 3BW range, with 3PIPs you can slam 3 columns into the weakest part of your enemy's line as 3 sets of 2 elements form column for 1 PIP each and then slide into contact No one will love you for this. Actually Macbeth, that is a little trick I have been known to use with Warbands. Another trick is to use the rear fast moving elements as a separate battleline. For 1 PIP the front line all moves into contact, then, depending on PIPs available, fast elements from the second line move up individually or in small groups to back up the front line and form rear supporting columns...all in a single bound. This allows you to give extra punch where it will be most effective, prevents your opponent from guessing what you are up to, and keeps some elements out of X-Ray Threat Zones to form a nice handy reserve (I like having reserves). Light Horse could also do the same. Anyway, getting back to the issue at hand. I think the thing that is muddying the waters is their name. Calling them ‘fast 3Pk’ brings along with it all the mental baggage associated with Pikes. But they are not Pikes…they are just spears being held with both hands. If merely holding a spear with both hands allows a +3 for rear support, then I want my Hoplites to drop their shields and grab their pointy sticks with both mitts! Calling them what they really are, ‘fast 3Sp’, gives us a clearer insight into their true nature. And I have no problem giving them +1 for rear support in good going against foot (just like Wb). Of course, DBA is an abstract wargame, and we have to tale play balance into consideration. So perhaps it would have been better to have these enigmatic troops as ‘fast 3Sp’:- Let them have a CF of 3 against foot and a CF of 4 against mounted (unlike Ax)… Being Sp they would not pursue and get themselves into trouble (unlike Pk)… Being Sp they would still be vulnerable to Wb quick kills (unlike Ax)… Being 'fast' they would not be slowed or suffer the -2 penalty for being in bad going… Being 'fast' they’d still recoil on an equal score from solid foot… And let them have +1 for rear support in good going against foot (but not against Ps). So there you have it…’fast 3Sp’ as a sort of beefed-up Ax, but still vulnerable to Wb, that are as good as Ax in rough or bad going, better than Ax against mounted, and better than Ax in good going with rear support against foot (but with a shorter battleline).
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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 10:53:26 GMT
Post by jim1973 on Jun 7, 2021 10:53:26 GMT
And let them have +1 for rear support in good going against foot (but not against Ps). Wouldn't giving them side-support be less confusing if they are called 3Sp? Jim
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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 11:22:40 GMT
Post by stevie on Jun 7, 2021 11:22:40 GMT
And let them have +1 for rear support in good going against foot (but not against Ps). Wouldn't giving them side-support be less confusing if they are called 3Sp? Jim "Fast elements neither give nor receive flank support" - page 11, second paragraph. (But fast Warbands can give and receive rear support from other Warbands. Let fast 3Sp do the same with other fast 3Sp)…and another thing… Phil Barker in his very own “Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome” shows the Picts carrying small square shields and ‘long’ spears (but no longer than Greek ones). And the only reference to holding the spear in both hands appears to come from a single stone showing one warrior holding off some rather Roman looking cavalry. It seems to me to be a huge leap of the imagination to assume that ALL Picts did this, and that holding a mere 9 foot/3 metre spear with both hands makes you almost as good as Alexander’s Macedonian sarissai armed phalangites or the later Swiss with their 15-18 foot/5-6 metre long pikes! 🤪
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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 11:57:41 GMT
Post by snowcat on Jun 7, 2021 11:57:41 GMT
Stevie has the right approach here (although I disagree with the rear support).
No-one wants to remove ashigaru with their long nagae-yari from the game (for another 3Pk example). But these fast troops holding very long spear-like weapons (5-6m long) did not fight in the European fashion of tightly packed deep pike formations, in which individual movements were subsumed into the overall 'drilled pike machine'. Instead they fought in thin loose formations, where individual movement was encouraged.
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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 12:17:07 GMT
Post by jim1973 on Jun 7, 2021 12:17:07 GMT
It's hard when we don't know the prototype for the troop element. Was it the Welsh, the Hittites or the Japanese? If they're Spear then they are base 4 CF against foot and mounted. Maybe that's enough? No side-support (as per page 11). No rear support. Superior mobility. Fight at CV 2 in bad going. It just may do the trick.
Jim
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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 12:24:16 GMT
Post by snowcat on Jun 7, 2021 12:24:16 GMT
It's hard when we don't know the prototype for the troop element. Was it the Welsh, the Hittites or the Japanese? If they're Spear then they are base 4 CF against foot and mounted. Maybe that's enough? No side-support (as per page 11). No rear support. Superior mobility. Fight at CV 2 in bad going. It just may do the trick. Jim I'd agree with much of that. I wouldn't treat them like solid troops in bad going though. So either a lesser penalty (-1) or no penalty at all.
Cheers
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3Pk???
Jun 7, 2021 16:13:00 GMT
Post by stevie on Jun 7, 2021 16:13:00 GMT
Don’t forget they are supposed to be vulnerable to shooting as well.
True solid 4Sp and all Bd are CF 4 when shot at, partly for their large shields, and partly for their body armour (even having a leather or stiffened linen spolas helps to protect against missiles).
True solid 4Pk and all Ax are CF 3 when shot at or when fighting Ps. These ‘fast 3Sp’ should also be CF 3 against shooting and skirmishers.
Making them CF 3 against foot but with +1 for rear support (like Wb) does just that.
But all this is for House Rules or future versions of DBA. At the moment we’ll just have to live with the fantasy of holding a mere spear with two hands somehow makes you as good as a true pikemen.
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3Pk???
Jun 8, 2021 1:29:57 GMT
Post by snowcat on Jun 8, 2021 1:29:57 GMT
That's all fine, except I'm still waiting for a 3Pk that fought deeper than a Roman legionary cohort or a Spartan phalanx...! So until there are some decent examples, I'm not interested in them getting rear support just to help balance a CF profile. And failing strong evidence, you can just treat things currently called 3Pk as something else, like Ax, Sp or even proper Pk.
3Pk could be CF3 vs Ps or when shot at, otherwise CF4. No rear support. Move as Fast. -1 to combat in bad going.
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3Pk???
Jun 8, 2021 10:41:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by Haardrada on Jun 8, 2021 10:41:50 GMT
That's all fine, except I'm still waiting for a 3Pk that fought deeper than a Roman legionary cohort or a Spartan phalanx...! So until there are some decent examples, I'm not interested in them getting rear support just to help balance a CF profile. And failing strong evidence, you can just treat things currently called 3Pk as something else, like Ax, Sp or even proper Pk.
3Pk could be CF3 vs Ps or when shot at, otherwise CF4. No rear support. Move as Fast. -1 to combat in bad going. Most of the case for the rear support comes from Phil himself and the classification of such troops in DBM as Ax (X), by the original rules in DBM Ax (X) were to count as Ax(O) vs mounted troops and could count another element as rear support. If this has changed in DBMM to Ax(X) counting as Ax(S) against mounted I don't know. However, there are grounds (though speculative) that such troops did develop deeper formations in response to new threats....Akkadians/Summerians vs Chariots and the North Welsh for example vs the Normans....the Picts/Scots too were most likely using deeper formations prior to William Wallace. Yes this is speculative but probable and its not the only such example in the DBA universe. Maybe keeping the 3Sp from 2.2 without rear support may have been a better option?.. But this does not allow for the vulnerability to shooting, so the classification as 3Pk makes the element more vulnerability than Sp to shooting, but maybe the rear support may make them too powerful..a mere +1 (in good going) for rear support vs Bd,HD,Pk,Sp,Wb or Mounted could be more realistic?
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Post by jim1973 on Jun 8, 2021 12:23:53 GMT
I don't like rear support in DBA. It's not that I don't believe that troops didn't alter the depth historically. I just think that can be absorbed by the range of troop numbers that a DBA element represents. I read on the internet criticisms of DBA being a "12 element" game but I actually think that is a strength. Most historical battle reports I read indicate that the generals manage to match the width of the enemy, more or less, or use terrain (e.g. defeat of Boudicca). Points based systems, IMHO, just end up repeating the "outnumbered Romans against the horde of barbarians" scenario. In DBA, this is a disaster as the flanking penalty is so great. This doesn't match the reports. Not the numbers per se, but the extended line outflanking the "Romans". It seems strange that the Gauls need to halve their width and risk their flanks in order to nearly match the Romans. It also seems to me to be the reason that Pike armies struggle. Recreating the obscure Battle of Cleonai, between Corinth and Argos, is more interesting by decreasing the CF of the Corinthian hoplites to account for their lack of numbers, rather than the number of elements. But that's just my thoughts.
Cheers
Jim
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3Pk???
Jun 8, 2021 12:59:16 GMT
Post by snowcat on Jun 8, 2021 12:59:16 GMT
I think Jim has it pretty right.
In LADG there is no 'rear support'. Sure, a unit of Pike is usually modeled deeper with an extra rank or even two, but it counts as one unit just like everything else. If Pk had their CF adjusted so that they did not need rear support, it would de-nerf Pk armies. Just need to get the CF balanced right.
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Post by Haardrada on Jun 8, 2021 13:11:14 GMT
I think Jim has it pretty right. In LADG there is no 'rear support'. Sure, a unit of Pike is usually modeled deeper with an extra rank or even two, but it counts as one unit just like everything else. If Pk had their CF adjusted so that they did not need rear support, it would de-nerf Pk armies. Just need to get the CF balanced right. This is what I've been thinking of late. You have two extremes within the same combat rules... The rear support rule and the 6Bd,8Bw,8Sp,6Cav & 6Kn elements which in essence are two ways of dealing with the same problem, but there is resistance to an 8Pk element.5Hd & 7 Hd are a good way to determine fast or Solid Hd yet both have different base sizes...In a set of rules where an element depicts a fighting style rather than the weapons and equipment used it does seem to be a bag of exceptions moving away from the basic principles of what the rules set out to do in the first place.
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3Pk???
Jun 8, 2021 14:37:34 GMT
Post by timurilank on Jun 8, 2021 14:37:34 GMT
I think Jim has it pretty right. In LADG there is no 'rear support'. Sure, a unit of Pike is usually modeled deeper with an extra rank or even two, but it counts as one unit just like everything else. If Pk had their CF adjusted so that they did not need rear support, it would de-nerf Pk armies. Just need to get the CF balanced right. This is what I've been thinking of late. You have two extremes within the same combat rules... The rear support rule and the 6Bd,8Bw,8Sp,6Cav & 6Kn elements which in essence are two ways of dealing with the same problem, but there is resistance to an 8Pk element.5Hd & 7 Hd are a good way to determine fast or Solid Hd yet both have different base sizes...In a set of rules where an element depicts a fighting style rather than the weapons and equipment used it does seem to be a bag of exceptions moving away from the basic principles of what the rules set out to do in the first place. Interesting. There are a few late medieval armies that have pikemen based as 7Hd. The French Ordonnance for one attempted to copy the Swiss by training pikemen from Picardy and Savoy, this was less than successful, so more Swiss were hired. These troop types are based 40mm x 40mm and have 9 or 10 figures. Four such elements can be seen on the extremities of the Ghent line of pike and represent the hastily raised levies to fight Burgundy. The Battle of Gavere 1453 dbagora.blogspot.com/2021/01/threetests-used-standard-dba3-lists-for.html
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