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Post by Haardrada on Feb 15, 2021 14:33:20 GMT
Can anyone enlighten me as to what colour or symbols we're used by these armies in the 11th Century please?
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Post by timurilank on Feb 15, 2021 17:27:49 GMT
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 15, 2021 20:09:45 GMT
Many Thanks Robert, I know by the Armies and Enemies of the Dark Ages by Ian Heath that the Fatamid flags were green but not much about these three entities. The figures in the link do contain some of the Muslim forces in Spain as some Images represent the actions of the Sultinate of Grenada(Red flag with gold writing).
I am assuming, not that I have much to go on that the Ban Hilal may have had White standards which were prominent in pre-Islamic tribes in Arabia and among the Qarmetians with whome the Ban Hilal had raided Mecca in 930AD.Unless anyone can shed any more light on the subject.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 15, 2021 20:44:25 GMT
Mercenaries for the taifa states were recruited from North Africa. ‘Muslim Spain and Portugal’ by Hugh Kennedy does cover this listing the names of tribes that performed service in Iberia.
However, the Banu Hilal and the Banu Riyah were brought west to settle in Morocco (1153) and participate in the next jihad, they are described as supplying ‘useful cavalry’ but were hard to discipline (H. Kennedy).
As these tribes formed part of the Almohad invasion of Iberia, it seem likely that they adopted the ‘black flags’ of their sponsors and my guess, even the veil.
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 15, 2021 23:51:52 GMT
Thank you Thomas for that expansion, I'd only followed the history of the Banu Hilal into the 11th Century where they had originated in Arabia and were used by the Fatamids to invade Zirid North Africa with great effect. Then initially allied the Hammadids they became a powerful threat. I hadn't read much further as I was only interested on their influence on the two Dynasties at that time as I am putting together a III/33 Early Muslims in North Africa & Sicily army. I am unsure if the Banu Hilal would fit under that list or the Early Bedouin or Fatamid lists?
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Post by timurilank on Feb 16, 2021 7:36:50 GMT
That is a good question.
After the conquest of Egypt by the Fatamid, the tribe was sent to Central North Africa to engage the Zirid.
Described as undisciplined and independent, even by the Fatamid, classing them as ‘allies’ or vassals might not be far from the mark. The Arab Dynasties (IV/6c) are allies of the Fatamid offering enough options of lancers (Cv) and light horse (LH).
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 16, 2021 9:42:41 GMT
That is a good question. After the conquest of Egypt by the Fatamid, the tribe was sent to Central North Africa to engage the Zirid. Described as undisciplined and independent, even by the Fatamid, classing them as ‘allies’ or vassals might not be far from the mark. The Arab Dynasties (IV/6c) are allies of the Fatamid offering enough options of lancers (Cv) and light horse (LH). Or possibly list III/54a Dynastic Bedouin(substituting the Kurds with Fatamids Allies)?This would take account of their settling with some Berber tribes and it certainly fits the time frame for the rise of the Almohad Caliphate?
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Post by timurilank on Feb 16, 2021 12:01:24 GMT
That would work.
Mind you, I do like the Kurds for my Dynastic Bedouin.
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Post by paulhannah on Feb 16, 2021 16:47:25 GMT
What basic color palette have you chosen for your figures? Zirids...what a cool name. I mean, if you're gonna launch an Islamic caliphate, that's a good name to choose. You prompted me to pull out my box of barely-started, III/33 EMNA&S ( Khurasan Arabs). Really nice figures. My painting has been so un-focused during the pandemic, as I move from one project to another, completing little. Maybe I'll make good progress on these before getting distracted again. Look! A squirrel!
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 16, 2021 17:47:51 GMT
What basic color palette have you chosen for your figures? Zirids...what a cool name. I mean, if you're gonna launch an Islamic caliphate, that's a good name to choose. You prompted me to pull out my box of barely-started, III/33 EMNA&S ( Khurasan Arabs). Really nice figures. My painting has been so un-focused during the pandemic, as I move from one project to another, completing little. Maybe I'll make good progress on these before getting distracted again. Look! A squirrel!Hi Paul, we same to be of the same ilk as I am flighty over armies regardless of pandemic or not... as Paddy Green can testify! I have not put a pallet together yet, but most of my Islamic armies have a mix of Brown's,Blues,Greens,Reds, white, yellows and buffs. I was really tidying up my lead pile and looking for an army full of Ps+LH to fit something like Tony Aguilar's Psiloi Psillyness. I discovered I just about everything to build a II/33 army to match my Normans and Italian Lombards.... Although maybe not in weight. 😁 I wonder what colour flags gamers have chose if they've built this army?
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 16, 2021 10:24:39 GMT
Sorry to ask again, but I'd like to check on the Aghlabid banners... would they have been black like the Abbassid flags or a different colour?
Thanks in advance.
Eddie. 😊
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Post by timurilank on Apr 16, 2021 11:59:01 GMT
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Post by timurilank on Apr 16, 2021 12:04:19 GMT
Search for Aghlabid dynasty and you will also have pictures of their coinage. This could provide a source for banner inscription.
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Post by hammurabi70 on Apr 16, 2021 14:12:33 GMT
Most interesting as a side issue I have been looking at the Byzantine - Sassanian War of the sixth century. In researching this the sources are ambivalent. How certain are sources on the Byzantine flag? Does anyone know whether flags were in city red or imperial purple? Evidently the Sassanians predated Islamic powers. Any clarity on their emblem and was it purple or royal blue?
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Post by timurilank on Apr 16, 2021 17:00:04 GMT
hammurabi70,
Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome have Byzantine units carrying the draco standard. The vexillum was also used depicting a cross. Colours used were various shades of red, followed by blue and green. If I am not mistaken, purple would be reserved for the emperor when in the field.
From the same source, Sassanid banners were red, yellow and purple often depicting animals such as horses, wolves, eagles and dragons. Most of what I have seen on the Internet would be at home in a temple than on the battlefield.
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