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Post by kaiphranos on Dec 31, 2020 21:40:28 GMT
I was sifting through my unpainted miniatures today, and came across a couple of dozen dwarves. Not enough for an army on their own, but it occurred to me they could be a contingent in a "Battle of the Five Armies" from The Hobbit scaled to HotT. I decided to sketch out what a pair of appropriate armies might look like:
Defenders:
Spear or Shooter General (Bard and Thranduil) @ 2AP
Hero (representing Thorin & company) @ 4AP
Magician (Gandalf) @ 4AP
God (Eagles as late-arriving divine intervention) @ 4AP
2x Blades (Nain's dwarves from the Iron Hills) @ 2AP
2x Shooters (Elves of Mirkwood) @ 2AP
2x Spears (Men of Laketown) @ 2AP
Attackers:
Blade or Warband General (Bolg and his guards) @ 2AP
4x Riders or Beasts (wargs with or without riders) @ 2AP
2x Shooters (goblins with bows) @ 2AP
8x Hordes (other goblins) @ 1AP
1x Flyers (swarms of bats) @ 2AP
I presume I'm not the only one to have given this consideration - what have other folks used to model this battle in HotT?
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 4, 2021 18:47:46 GMT
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Post by hobgoblin on Aug 15, 2021 22:32:54 GMT
The orc army in the rulebook has always seemed to me to be modelled on the Battle of the Five Armies. And I've always thought that the bodyguard of Bolg should probably consist of at least two warband elements, as they had a fairly significant impact on the battle (so they should at least start with the +1 for rear support). Personally, I'd be inclined to play it with more AP (36 or so) and have four warband elements; there seem to have been quite a lot of Sauron's Uruks (presumably including Bolg and his bodyguard) in the Misty Mountains at that time. As in that other thread, I'd have all the wargs as beasts, orcish riders or no, as they thrive in bad going. I'm not sure about goblin shooters. Tolkien's orcs seem to have been essentially undersized (even the Uruks), fast, bow-armed heavy infantry, so are quite hard to find historical analogues for, but the shooting doesn't seem to have been terribly disciplined on the battlefield (as opposed to skirmishes like the Gladden Fields and Amon Hen). I'd have all the goblin forces as hordes except the bodyguard. As a side-note, I think the orc armies at the Hornburg and the Pelennor were largely made up of Uruks, who seem to have been the backbone of Saruman and Sauron's forces, but even those are probably hordes in those 'zoomed-out' battles (they'd be more like warband in a skirmish). Also, I'd make Thorin and Co blades rather than hero; the 500p movement seems a bit much for dwarves, and their being blades sets up the potential for Bolg's bodyguard to kill them dramatically. I love your idea of the eagles as a god element. But what about Beorn? Might the eagles count as dragons (being flightier, and as suggested on the thread linked above) and Beorn as a god? Starting with 8AP off the table would help to give the sense that the goodies are hopelessly outnumbered to begin with. And in both the Battle of the Five Armies and its literary antecedent at the end of Hrolf Kraki's Saga, the big bear has a big impact. With the eagles and Beorn in, I'd take Gandalf out, as his role seems to have been largely advisory; I'd have him modelled in the general's element along with Thranduil (though I'd have to check the book to see if that's the company in which he spent the battle). I'd make that command element either Spears or - possibly - warband, as the elves (from memory) rush into attack with swords. Warband, as fast-moving troops untroubled by bad going, fits reasonably well - and it also makes them suitably deadly against goblin hordes. So I'd probably adjust your lists like this: Defenders: 1x Blades (Thorin & company) @ 2AP God (Beorn in bear form - a late arrival to turn the tide) @4ap Dragon (Eagles as late-arriving airborne intervention) @ 4AP 2x Blades (Dain's dwarves from the Iron Hills) @ 2AP 2x Shooters (Elves of Mirkwood) @ 2AP 1x Spears or Warband (Elves of Mirkwood - including general) 2x Spears (Men of Laketown) @ 2AP Attackers: 2x Warband - including general (Bolg and his guards) @ 2AP 4x Beasts (wargs with or without riders) @ 2AP 10x Hordes (other goblins) @ 1AP 1x Flyers (swarms of bats) @ 2AP If I were playing this, though, I'd probably make each command 36 AP and use the extra points to bulk out the elves (more spear or warband - I'd go with warband to get that fierce charge against the goblins) and really amp up the number of goblin hordes. |
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Post by hobgoblin on Aug 16, 2021 15:55:42 GMT
Here's the passage that makes me think the elves could work as warband:
"The elves were the first to charge. Their hatred for the goblins is cold and bitter. Their spears and swords shone in the gloom with a gleam of chill flame, so deadly was the wrath of the hands that held them. As soon as the host of their enemies was dense in the valley, they sent against it a shower of arrows, and each flickered as it fled as if with stinging fire. Behind the arrows a thousand of their spearmen leapt down and charged. The yells were deafening. The rocks were stained black with goblin blood."
So although the elves are described as either archers or spearmen, the spearmen have swordsmen among them and attack with aggressive charges - and quick-kill hordes!
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Post by mark leslie on Aug 17, 2021 4:51:59 GMT
The DE BELLIS FICTIONALIS (DBFi), David Brown, take on the Free Peoples at the Battle of Five Armies.
3:16 BATTLE OF THE FIVE ARMIES - FREE PEOPLE - 2941.
Cold. Ag 1. WW, Rv, H(S), H(G), RGo, M, BUA.
C-in-C - Gandalf the Grey - Reg LH (S) @ 27AP 0-1
Extra to give up to magic ability (S) to Gandalf @ 0-13AP 0-1
Elf sub-general - Irr Cv (S) @ 18AP or Irr LH (S) @ 17AP or
- Irr Bw (S) @ 15AP or Irr Ax (S) @ 14AP 1
Elf scouts - Irr LH (S) @ 7AP or Irr LH (F) @ 4AP 0-1
Elf spears - Irr Ax (S) @ 4AP or all Irr Sp (O) @ 4AP 4-12
Elf swordsmen - Irr Bd (F) @ 5AP or all Irr Bd (O) @ 5AP 0-4
Elf archers - Irr Ps (S) @ 3AP or Irr Bw (S) @ 5AP 8-16
Upgrade Elves to regular @ 3-30AP All/0
Dwarf sub-general - Reg Bd (S) @ 29AP 0-*1
Dáin's Dwarf veterans - Reg Bd (O) @ 7AP 2-6
Upgrade Dwarves to Reg Bd (S) @ 9AP All/0
Lake-man sub-general - Reg Bw (S) @ 27AP or Reg Bd (O) @ 27AP 1
Lake-men archers - Irr Bw (O) @ 4AP or Irr Ps (O) @ 2AP 4-12
Lake-men spears or swordsmen - up to 1/2 Irr Bd (O) @ 5AP rest; Irr Ax (O) @ 3AP
- or all Irr Sp (O) @ 4AP 4-12
Lake-men scouts - Irr Ps (S) @ 3AP or Irr Ps (O) @ 2AP 0-6
Upgrade Lake-men to regular @ 2-7AP All/0
Upgrade Bw to Reg Bw (S) @ 7AP 0-1
Eagles allies - List 3:6 Eagles
Beorn - Irr Wb (S) @ 5AP or Irr Sneaker (S) @ 3AP 0-1
Notional command at the Battle of Five Armies was exercised jointly between the eminent persons
present; with Thorin, Dáin, Thranduil, Bard and Gandalf there was plenty of talent available. Generals
which are not single-element commands must, if present, command all troops of their own race. The Elf
King rides to and from battle, similarly messengers and scouts are mentioned but their form is uncertain,
the Elf blades wield a "sword gleaming with a chill flame". Dáin's Dwarves' armour may qualify as Bd
(S), the troop scale has been stretched a little for Dáin’s small force. A single-element Dwarf command
can represent Thorin, his retainers and perhaps include Elves and Men coming to his rescue. Eagles and
Beorn are not compulsory as they could have arrived after the battle was resolved. Lake-men seemed to
have had a standing militia as they form into companies when attacked by Smaug, hence the optional
regular status. The total of Men and Dwarves must not exceed the total of Elves. If Gandalf is not used as
the C-in-C one of the other non-eagle generals becomes the C-in-C. If Gandalf is used he can substitute
for one non-eagle command’s general. If no Dwarf general* is used they become part of the Lake-men
command. Dwarves and Men may not rear-support each other. Beorn can be part of any command. No
more than one element of Human Bw (S) can be used
DE BELLIS FICTIONALIS being a mashup of DBM 2.1 and Hott, so about three times the size of a standard DBA/Hott army. Not a hundred percent sure, but I believe the "David Brown" mentioned is the Evil Gong guy.
These rules were available on a Yahoo group many many moons ago and seem to have evaporated along with most of that time. His Middle Earth and Hyborian lists were incredibly extensive.
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Post by hobgoblin on Aug 17, 2021 8:59:58 GMT
That's an interesting list - thanks for posting!
The take on Beorn seems a bit weedy. He's a bit effective than a mere warband element when he arrives, and he does much more than just kill Bolg (which the sneaker option must be designed to reflect):
I'd say that's a lot more like a HotT god than a sneaker or warband. The +6 combat factor seems a good reflection of what's described - as does the late arrival and dramatic impact that a god element can bring.
Incidentally, the one thing that always strikes me as odd in the very detailed HotT/DBA/DBM lists for Middle Earth that I've seen online is the make-up of the orcish elements of the evil armies. There seems to be a fixation on "normal orcs" with Uruks as the elites. But the text doesn't really reflect that and implies very strongly that the orcs in the main armies of Saruman and Sauron were chiefly Uruks. A straight read-through of LotR would imply that Saruman had Uruk-hai, wolf-riders, Dunlendings and half-orcs (classed as "Men" rather than "Orcs") in his armies (and doubtless some smaller orcish scouts and the like). The Uruk-hai are normally simply described as "Orcs" in the narrative (they call themselves "Uruk-hai"). In the Battle of the Fords of the Isen, some are described as "fierce Uruks" in close-up, but that doesn't necessarily distinguish them from the "Orcs" described elsewhere.
Similarly, with the armies of Mordor, Tolkien tells us that Sauron had been issuing whole armies of Uruks for 500 years by the time of the War of the Ring. And the tracker in Mordor complains to his Uruk companion that "you fighters" have been making a mess of the war.
But list writers always want to make the Uruks elites rather than mainstays - in part, I think, because there's a need for huge numbers of orcs (so hordes in DBX terms) but some are clearly fiercer than others (Wb?). I reckon hordes (or fast hordes in D3H2, etc.) probably work best for the Uruks in bigger battles (Hornburg, Pelennor, Cormallen), with the smaller orcs undistinguished from them at that scale (and either not present in large numbers or the last reserves - like those Sam and Frodo fall in with). But for the Battle of the Five Armies, 'zooming in' a bit and beefing up Bolg and his guards to warband is clearly appropriate - not least because the bulk of that goblin army is made up of smaller orcs.
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Post by kaiphranos on Aug 17, 2021 23:20:15 GMT
I'm glad to see this pop up again, because rsdean and I ended up giving this a try the other weekend. The armies we used were a little different than the ones I had originally outlined, due to the figures we had on hand. For the goblins, we had the following: 1x Hero General @ 4AP 2x Shooters @ 2AP 2x Beasts @ 2AP 2x Riders @ 2AP 1x Blades @ 2AP 6x Hordes @ 1AP For the Free Peoples we ended up with this: 1x Warband General @ 2AP 3x Warbands @ 2AP (The Lakemen got classed as warbands since their role was being played by some Vikings and we wanted to keep them distinct from the Dwarves) 2x Shooters @ 2AP (Elves) 2x Blades @ 2AP (Dwarves) 1x Behemoth @ 4AP (Beorn, with some special rules) 1x God @ 4AP (The Eagles) Thorin and Company were relegated to representing the location of the fortress on the broader Lonely Mountain terrain element. Beorn could be brought on as a move any time after a Elf, Dwarf, or Lakeman unit had been destroyed, and would appear in the center of the goblins' starting table edge. We also agreed that the Eagles couldn't show up on the first turn. We ended up playing twice and switching sides between games. In the first one, Bolg broke through in the center and made a run for the fortress, but was repulsed - the Eagles showed up to support the Free Peoples as they were counterattacking. In the second, Bard and the warbands charged forward into the goblin hordes, but some bad rolling saw them cut off and destroyed pretty quickly. In retrospect, maybe hobgoblin's approach of having Beorn as a God would just work better; he did show up in the first game, but never reached the action moving at Behemoth speeds. |
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Post by hobgoblin on Aug 19, 2021 8:07:14 GMT
That looks a great game! I'm tempted myself to have a go at building some matched armies for this. Most of my HotT stuff is in 1/72 now, but this would be a great project for either 15mm or 28mm - and barring bears in both scales and eagles in 15mm, I'm sure I have enough spare miniatures kicking around for both. One thing that's occurred to me in the past about doing something like this is that there would be no need to stick to the whole of the Tolkien "legendarium". Instead, you could go strictly on the descriptions in The Hobbit - which are far from extensive. So there would be no need to worry about orc height or skin colour (or elf height or skin colour, for that matter, or the presence of elven horns, as in Tove Jansson's illustration below). It would be great to draw some inspiration from some of the wilder takes on the book:    |
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Post by ashimbabbar on May 25, 2023 19:37:40 GMT
So I'd probably adjust your lists like this: Defenders: 1x Blades (Thorin & company) @ 2AP God (Beorn in bear form - a late arrival to turn the tide) @4ap Dragon (Eagles as late-arriving airborne intervention) @ 4AP 2x Blades (Dain's dwarves from the Iron Hills) @ 2AP 2x Shooters (Elves of Mirkwood) @ 2AP 1x Spears or Warband (Elves of Mirkwood - including general) 2x Spears (Men of Laketown) @ 2AP Attackers: 2x Warband - including general (Bolg and his guards) @ 2AP 4x Beasts (wargs with or without riders) @ 2AP 10x Hordes (other goblins) @ 1AP 1x Flyers (swarms of bats) @ 2AP That's close to what I had arrived to with much tinkering
THE GOOD GUYS . Spear General : king Thranduil and elven nobles . 1 Spear : yet more elves with spears . 2 Shooters : elves with bows . 3 Blades : 1x armoured dwarves, 2x Lake-men . 1 Warband : Thorin's merry band . 1 Dragon : the eagles . 1 God : Beorn X THE BAD GUYS . Blade General : Bolg and guards . 4 Riders : warg riders . 2 Beasts : wargs . 10 Hordes : gobboes
The only weapon Lake-men are described as using is swords. Warband best fits what Thorin's gang did : knife through the Hordes to try and instakill the Blade General. Odds were against them but it could have worked. Bolg's guards are described as big goblins with iron scimitars No gobbo is described using a bow bats are only here to darken the sky and look pretty ( I think bats are very cute  ) |
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