I'm stuggling to match the 4th from bottom paragraph on page 17 of the HOTT rules (V2.1) with the first diagram on page 31.
The rules say:
No element can move into contact with an enemy element's flank unless it starts partly or entirely on that side of an imaginary line prolonging the side base edge of the enemy element, any part not being on that side of the line being behind the enemy rear.
I understand this as, you can only contact an enemy flank unless you're entirely behind that flank, or the part of your element that isn't, is behind the enemy rear.
However on page 31, Element E, which fulfills these conditions, apparently can't contact the target in the flank.
Element ‘B’ is not entirely beyond the flank-line, so can only contact ‘A’ in the front. Element ‘E’ is also not entirely beyond the flank-line, so can only contact ‘A’ in the rear.
(In my copy of HoTT I added the words ‘front, flank, and rear’ to Element 'A’ on page 31, then drew pointed arrows from all the other element’s to show their legitimate moves)
I agree Stevie that if the wording was only 'entirely' that it would make sense, (as it does for the paragraph above which talks about contacting an element at the rear,) but it's the inclusion of the bit about 'partially' when contacting a flank that's confusing me, as it doesn't seem to illustrate it in the diagrams.
Here is a picture of the HoTT 2.1 page 31 diagram, for those that don’t have the rule book readily available:-
I think I may have sussed-out where the confusion is Sheffmark. The middle of page 17 says:- “No element can move into contact with an enemy element’s flank unless it starts partly or entirely on that side of an imaginary line prolonging the side base edge of the enemy, any part not being on that side of the line being behind the enemy rear (see page 31).”
At first glance this poorly written sentence appears to be concentrating on the ‘flank-line’. However, the very next last part, which I have underlined, is actually saying you can’t contact a flank when entirely behind the ‘rear-line’ and only partly over the ‘flank-line’. (i.e. Element ‘E’ on page 31, as opposed to Element 'F' which is entirely beyond the lines).
The confusion is caused by having the important part of this sentence at the end instead of having it at the beginning where it should be.
As an experiment imagine that Element ‘A’ were facing ‘E’ instead of ‘B’. Then the possible moves would be the same...neither can contact a flank.
Fortunately the diagram on page 31 makes things clear. (Thank heavens for the diagrams!...without them I’d have a much harder time of understanding the rules properly...both HoTT 2.1 AND DBA 3.0)
Note that the diagram above is from the 2014 edition of HOTT. The similar but not exact diagram from the 2002 edition is here. I get a "not enough space" message if I try to post directly. What is the secret of two different diagrams.?
Well spotted Bob. I have taken the liberty of posting your link for those who, like myself, do not possess a copy of the HoTT 2.0 (2002) rules so that they can make a direct comparison:-
As we can see, Element ‘F’ is not entirely beyond the ‘rear-line’, so cannot contact ‘A’s’ rear. But it is also not entirely beyond the ‘flank-line’ either, as part of it is behind the ‘rear-line’.
Perhaps that is what that garbled sentence on page 17 is trying to say:- “...any part not being on that side of the line (i.e. the flank-line) while also being behind the enemy rear.”
Indeed, if players are only using the HoTT 2.1 (2014) diagram, and find they have troops in the same position as shown by Element ‘F’ above, they may be confused as to which edge of ‘A’ they can contact.
It also explains the use of the word ‘partly’...Element ‘F’ is partly (but not entirely) beyond both the ‘flank-line’ and the ‘rear-line’, so cannot contact the enemy rear but can still contact their flank.
Thanks for sharing that Stevie, however I still don't see why element E in the diagram in the 2014 edition can't contact the right flank, as the part of it that isn't behind the flank is behind the rear, yet in the 2014 diagrams it says it can't.
Interestingly the diagram in the 2002 rule set says Element E can contact either element A's rear or right flank!!
Why the change for element E between the two diagrams and which is correct?
Perhaps it’s a rule change in HoTT 2.1 (2014)...Element ‘E’ is already entirelybeyond the ‘rear-line’, and only partly beyond the ‘flank-line’, so upon review it was later decided that it can only contact the rear.
On the other hand, Element ‘F’ in the HoTT 2.0 (2002) diagram, and the same would apply if it were in such a position in HoTT 2.1 (2014), is deemed to be partly in both the flank and rear areas, and entirely in neither, so it can only contact the flank.
(Other than that all I can say is: “I didn’t draw the diagrams”)
Last Edit: Dec 12, 2020 15:48:08 GMT by stevie: ...we should expect differences between HoTT 2.0 and 2.1, or there’d be no point in buying the later version...
I don't have a 2002 copy of the rules so can't say if the written rules have changed.
I copied out the relevant paragrpah from the 2014 rules in my first contribution, but it seems to me there is a difference between what the rules say and what the diagrams show in the 2014 copy, (hence my original query).
Maybe the rules as written should be taken as accurate, in which case element E could contact the right flank?
I too don’t have a copy of the HoTT 2.0 (2002) rules, so am scrambling about in the dark here. Could someone post the exact wording? (Bob has already provided us with the HoTT 2.0 diagram).
In the meantime, and not knowing the exact wording of the earlier HoTT 2.0 (2002) rules, I think that the HoTT 2.1 (2014) wording is a bit inconstant with the 2014 diagram. Page 17 says:- “No element can move into contact with an enemy element’s flank unless it starts partly or entirely on that side of an imaginary line prolonging the side base edge of the enemy, any part not being on that side of the (flank) line beingbehind the enemy rear.” (the word in blue has been added by me to help my understanding of what it’s trying to say)
The 2014 diagram shows that Element ‘E’ is partly over the side-line, but all of the element is behind the enemy rear, therefore it should only contact the rear and not the flank (for the very same reason that Element 'B' can only contact the front and not the flank).
This is much easier to remember (which is perhaps why it was changed in HoTT 2.1):- If you are entirely behind the rear-line, you can only contact the rear (i.e. Element ‘E’). If you are entirely behind the flank-line, you can only contact the flank (i.e. Elements ‘C’ and ‘D’). If you are entirely behind both lines, you can choose to contact either edge (i.e. Element ‘F’). If you are partly behind both the flank and rear lines, again you can only contact the flank. (as shown in the HoTT 2.0 (2002) diagram)
Of course, elements can also contact the front, if they have enough movement, but the page 31 diagram is only concerned with “Flank or Rear Contacts”, so this is not mentioned.
(Other interpretations are possible however...)
Last Edit: Dec 13, 2020 16:02:00 GMT by stevie: ...at least, that's how we play it...
It could be that the HoTT 2.1 (2014) page 31 diagram is wrong, as it doesn’t seem to follow the current exact rule wording.
On the other hand, and assuming that the HoTT 2.0 (2002) wording is the same as the 2014 edition, then Element ‘F’ in the earlier rules was wrong!
Like Element ‘E’ it is shown as being partly beyond both the flank AND rear-line, so it SHOULD be allowed (like ‘E’) to contact either the flank or rear. Quote:- “No element can move into contact with an enemy element’s flank unless it starts partly or entirely on that side of an imaginary line prolonging the side base edge of the enemy, any part not being on that side of the line being behind the enemy rear.” (Later edit: but this confusing sentence is only talking about contacting a flank, not the rear. so the move options for Element 'F' are right in the HoTT 2.0 (2002) diagram)
My mates and I are going to stick with the HoTT 2.1 (2014) diagram, as that makes sense, no matter what the earlier rules or the actual current wording says.
Last Edit: Dec 13, 2020 16:43:08 GMT by stevie: ...my brain hurts...let's just keep it simple...