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Post by Cromwell on Nov 21, 2020 9:28:05 GMT
I want to re-fight Hastings (again).
The big problem with Hastings is that in the actual battle victory for William came about mainly through parts of the Saxon army pursuing retreating Normans and thereby creating gaps in the Saxon shield wall, which then caused a shortening of the wall length.
In DBA 3.0 Spear do not pursue at all and Blades pursue other foot.
My take on the battle is that blades (Huscurls) would be disciplined enough not to pursue and break the shield wall, however the Select and Great Fryd (Spears) would.
Therefore for my re-fight I will implement the following house rules.
Huscurls (blade) never pursue.
Select Fryd (Spears) If they recoil any Norman element roll a D6 score of 1 the Select Fryd pursue
Great Fryd (Spears) If they recoil any Norman element they roll a D6 score of 1 or 2 the Great Fryd pursue.
I tried this out and it seemed to work well.
In the trial only one element of Great Fryd pursued, but next bound Harold was able to advance his unengaged left flank to support the pursuing Fryd.
However Normans only have to get the Saxons to do that a couple of times and the Saxons would loose the hill advantage.
Going to do a full re-fight but using the standard 12 elements this weekend.
I will post a report and put pictures on my web page.
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Post by sheffmark on Nov 23, 2020 14:00:37 GMT
Why not use Horde for the Great Fryd, they would pursue automatically?
Presumably because they are too vulnerable to Kn even on a hill?
However weren't the Bretons on the left of William's army, so could their mounted be legitimately classed as Cv?
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Post by Baldie on Nov 23, 2020 14:58:02 GMT
Not so easy on your own but if playing with an opponent acting as the Norman's would it also help if they were allowed to flick you in the face with rubber bands until you got so annoyed you charged them.
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Post by lkmjbc on Nov 23, 2020 16:16:01 GMT
I would recommend using Horde... They pursue correctly.... though in one game I had them chase a unit of knights down and kill them! That was one group of angry peasents.
Joe Colline
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Post by snowcat on Nov 23, 2020 22:50:20 GMT
Not so easy on your own but if playing with an opponent acting as the Norman's would it also help if they were allowed to flick you in the face with rubber bands until you got so annoyed you charged them. Oh I can see enormous potential for this idea!
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Post by Cromwell on Nov 24, 2020 8:57:37 GMT
I like the Horde idea and will give it a try out. The Bretons were indeed on the left of Williams army and I have 2 elements of them classed as Cv.
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Post by Cromwell on Nov 24, 2020 9:09:26 GMT
Not so easy on your own but if playing with an opponent acting as the Norman's would it also help if they were allowed to flick you in the face with rubber bands until you got so annoyed you charged them. My earliest recollection of a wargame was with a friend using 54mm Swoppit Knights from Britians Ltd. We had a load of rubber bands and each had a 12 inch ruler. Stretched the band over the ruler aimed at your opponents troops and let fly! Not historically accurate or having the same elegant systems as DBA but very good fun! Especially as the warning voice of a parent could be heard in the background "You will have someones eye out!" I still have two eyes! Which reminds me, about Hastings, There was this Saxon turned up ready for the battle of Hastings. Being a bit late on parade he asks this Huscurl where he should stand. The Huscurl looks this specimen of Saxon England up and down and notices he is armed with a rusty pen knife and a bow with one arrow. "Stand right at the back" Orders the Huscurl And as the intepid warrior wanders off he calls after him "And take care you don't have someones eye out with that bloody arrow!"
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Post by stevie on Nov 24, 2020 13:29:10 GMT
Speaking of “playing with arrows could take someone’s eye out”, here are some of the problems I came across when trying to recreate this battle. 1) Why should the Normans ever risk charging uphill?Since DBA has no rules to force the attacking-invaders to advance, nor any time limit such as the approach of nightfall to encourage them to do so, what is there to stop William the Conk from just using the infinite amount of time he has (and an infinite supply of arrows) to simply shoot the poor Saxons to death from the bottom of the hill? (One possible solution is to use the “Time of Day Display” so that the battle ends before one of the players dies of old age, thus taking away younger players obvious advantage)2) Why should the Anglo-Saxons ever risk having their Hordes pursuing?I would simple deploy or move my Spears, who never pursue, in front of the Hordes. Blades are ok in the front line, as they don’t pursue mounted, and uphill Spears (unlike the pathetic Hordes) are equal to Knights...in fact they are a bit better, as the Knights will often recoil exposing adjacent friends to overlaps. (Cromwell’s solution is a good one. I once suggested a similar random pursuit mechanism myself here: fanaticus.boards.net/post/10089/ ...but my mates didn’t like it simply because it was random, and they had no control over it)A third problem was to actually get the defending Anglo-Saxons up on a hill in the first place, as the invading Normans get to choose the base edges. Perhaps not an issue when re-creating a set-piece historical battle, and this can still be achieved in an ordinary game by the defender choosing two large 6 x 3 BW gentle hills with a road crossing them, thus limiting the invader’s table edge choice and ensuring that a hill will always be in the defender’s deployment zone. (Remembering that there must be some rough or bad going, so have a rough going Hamlet BUA as the compulsory Arable choice...and call it the village of Hastings...)
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Post by Cromwell on Nov 25, 2020 9:06:35 GMT
Thanks Stevie.
As to 1) I think the Time of Day clock is a very good idea.
2) I am still not sure about hordes and have not yet had a chance to try it out. I do not mind the random pursuit at all. As a commander especial at thAt time you had minimal control once the battle was underway.
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Post by sleepysloo on Nov 26, 2020 17:59:02 GMT
I was chuffed to see your post as I have just finished playing one of the best Wargames EVER with one of my sons using DBA 3.0. However I adapted it for Hastings in a number of ways. I played 15mm 'DBA Double Based Squared' as it used to be called on this forum years ago; i.e. 4 times the number of figures on bases twice as wide and deep as normal. The distance scaled is also doubled and the playing area dimensions. HOWEVER MY GAME COULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED AT NORMAL SCALE WITH NO DIFFERENCE. Norman Army = 1 Command of 24 Els, 6x3KN + 2x3Cv+8x3Bw (4x3Cb + 4x3Bw=identical functionality in this battle) + 8x4Bd. Anglo Danish Army = 1 Command of 24 Els, 8x7Hd + 8x4Sp + 8x4Bd. All the Saxons on a Hill, the flanks of which cannot be entered. The Hill was 12 Els wide.
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Post by Cromwell on Nov 27, 2020 8:55:37 GMT
I was chuffed to see your post as I have just finished playing one of the best Wargames EVER with one of my sons using DBA 3.0. However I adapted it for Hastings in a number of ways. I played 15mm 'DBA Double Based Squared' as it used to be called on this forum years ago; i.e. 4 times the number of figures on bases twice as wide and deep as normal. The distance scaled is also doubled and the playing area dimensions. HOWEVER MY GAME COULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED AT NORMAL SCALE WITH NO DIFFERENCE. Norman Army = 1 Command of 24 Els, 6x3KN + 2x3Cv+8x3Bw (4x3Cb + 4x3Bw=identical functionality in this battle) + 8x4Bd. Anglo Danish Army = 1 Command of 24 Els, 8x7Hd + 8x4Sp + 8x4Bd. All the Saxons on a Hill, the flanks of which cannot be entered. The Hill was 12 Els wide. That sounds great!
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Post by goragrad on Nov 28, 2020 0:54:55 GMT
Insofar as why the Normans would never attack uphill or the Anglo-Saxons pursue down the hill, stevie - recreating a specific battle could very well mean scenario specific rules.
In this case the attacker loses on a draw, time of day, etc. or the conditions used by sleepysloo.
Just as expecting every HYW battle to follow the outcome of Crecy, Poiters, or Agincourt without scenario specific conditions using DBA is naive.
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Post by stevie on Nov 28, 2020 11:10:04 GMT
What you say is true Goragrad...but I follow the philosophy that if something happened on one battlefield, then it could also happen on any battlefield, if the conditions are the same. And the rules should at least allow the ‘possibilty’ of it happening. The alternative is to have ‘special scenario rules’ that only apply when recreating a particular historical battle (i.e. adding rules DBA has left out in order to get the right historical outcome), and those particular events can never ever occur when playing a one-off what-if normal game. So armies with Bows will only be forced to charge uphill at Hastings, and never anywhere else. And 4Ax can only stand against Blades at Cannae, and never anywhere else. And Hoplite Spears will only impetuously pursue at Chaeronea, and never anywhere else. And Longbows can only defeat Blades at Poiters and Agincourt, and never anywhere else. Of course, this can be taken toooo far...we can’t expect every single historical event to be incorporated into the rules, or the rule book would be the size of a telephone directory! Nonetheless, I do think it’s possible to add some of the obvious things DBA is missing, like some sort of internal time limit such as the approach of nightfall ending the battle. I do like simple solutions that cure multiple problems, and nightfall does just that. It prevents infinite ammunition supply, it encourages attackers to advance, and it stops battles from going on forever, as well as being highly realistic. What’s not to like!
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