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Post by derrickthewhite on Nov 20, 2020 22:30:57 GMT
I'm playing out a battle, and I've come across a weird rules situation with the placement of my bases. Here is a picture. Its the goblins turn. I want to know: Can the goblin general attack the beasts? Can the second riders attack the beasts without spending two pips, one to move the general, and the other to attack the beasts? If nothing changes, can the beasts attack the goblin general, or must they attack the spears? It looks like wheeling would clip the spears. Do you have any general tactical advice for this situation? Thanks!
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Post by martin on Nov 21, 2020 15:08:13 GMT
I'm playing out a battle, and I've come across a weird rules situation with the placement of my bases. Here is a picture. Its the goblins turn. I want to know: Can the goblin general attack the beasts? Can the second riders attack the beasts without spending two pips, one to move the general, and the other to attack the beasts? If nothing changes, can the beasts attack the goblin general, or must they attack the spears? It looks like wheeling would clip the spears. Do you have any general tactical advice for this situation? Thanks! Some of it I’m not sure of, BUT I think I can answer your last question. If nothing else has moved then YES, the beasts can attack the goblin general...because the beasts is a single element, and there is no ‘wheeling’ required. You just move the front right corner of the beasts to contact the front right corner of the goblin general, and the rest of the beast’s front face into contact with the flank of the general (plus a bit of the flank of the 2nd rank element)
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Post by martin on Nov 21, 2020 15:09:34 GMT
...and if the goblin general doesn’t move, then the 2nd rank rider doesn’t have room to attack beasts
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Post by sheffmark on Nov 23, 2020 13:52:53 GMT
From the picture it looks as if the Goblin General can't wheel with his group to contact the Beasts, if so any contact would have to be by single element move.
Neither does it look as if the General has room to get into the front of the Beasts without clipping the Goblin spear with his back left corner. Also he doesn't seem to have room to contact the left flank of the Beasts without moving the other two elements, however he can't do that anyway as he's not solely behind their flank but also because he's pinned by the Beasts, so is limited to the moves at the bottom of page 16. This in turn may limit where he's allowed to go to get out of the way! So in short I don't see how the Goblin general can attack the beasts this go.
Normally the second rank of riders could attack the flank of the Beasts but you would have to move the other two elements out of the way to make room, however if you moved the General out of the way you could then wheel the remaining two elements, in column as a group, to clip the front left corner of the beasts. As that is a single element it would have to conform to the Goblin riders. But, as Martin says, you couldn't do it without moving your general.
Last question; you could attack the Goblin General in the flank with the Beasts as described by Martin above. This would also clip the right corner of the second Goblin rider. These would then move in column behind the General (page 21).
Of course this may not give you a recoil as the other Beast unit would not be lined up.
Tactical advice - Depends on the PIPs but for the Goblins maybe turn the General so that he's stopping any flank attack on the spears. Move the other riders so they are still part of a group so could attack the single element next go and force it to conform. For the Beasts you could go into the flank of the Goblin spears to provide an automatic kill and bring you other Beast to support. Finally try and keep your units lined up and parallel with each other to provide support and make recoils easy.
Hope this helps
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Post by derrickthewhite on Dec 8, 2020 20:05:54 GMT
Do people normally just move their units forward in strait lines?
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Post by lkmjbc on Dec 8, 2020 23:01:22 GMT
I'm not sure what you mean by your question. Most groups move straight forward. They are limited to how they move. Individual elements can move in all sorts of ways... So, it really depends on the number of pips you roll and what you are trying to accomplish.
Does that help?
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Post by sheffmark on Dec 9, 2020 9:58:18 GMT
Hi Derrick
It depends.
You asked for tatcical advice and so the reason I suggested keeping your units lined up and parallel with each other is that is makes things simpler in terms of less PIPs needed for movement, it avoids complicated situations and minimises situations where recoils may result in destruction.
However there are times when you want to move some elements differently to others, e.g. to attack a flank etc, but of course this may then limit flexibilty of movement in future if you roll low PIPs, so it's a balance and part of the tactical decision making for each game, which is part of what makes it fun.
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Post by derrickthewhite on Dec 9, 2020 19:51:15 GMT
I'm not sure what you mean by your question. Most groups move straight forward. They are limited to how they move. Individual elements can move in all sorts of ways... So, it really depends on the number of pips you roll and what you are trying to accomplish. Does that help? I'm a little fuzzy on what exactly the individual elements can do. The basic move rules talk about wheeling on forward corners, which seems to be quite limiting (what do you do when reach the edge of the map). Then there is the little weird "distance of farthest traveling corner" rule found in a diagram in the back of the book, which seems to be just an approximation for wheeling. Once you've joined combat a number of weird but limited options become available. You can do a lot of side stepping and jostling around if you've got clear space for it, and you can move backwards if you're faster than your foe. Also, you can turn in all sorts of directions if you're attacked from those directions. Am I missing something about how single elements can move? Hi Derrick It depends. You asked for tatcical advice and so the reason I suggested keeping your units lined up and parallel with each other is that is makes things simpler in terms of less PIPs needed for movement, it avoids complicated situations and minimises situations where recoils may result in destruction. However there are times when you want to move some elements differently to others, e.g. to attack a flank etc, but of course this may then limit flexibility of movement in future if you roll low PIPs, so it's a balance and part of the tactical decision making for each game, which is part of what makes it fun. I know that area is a mess. Its also a choke point on the map: When the game is over I'm going to go back try to improve it, or play a few games on a less intense map. Its got a lot of impassible terrain in it, and a river that snakes all over the place and makes things complicated. I'm wondering what your battles look like. do the majority of the two armies end up in two parallels lines?
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Post by lkmjbc on Dec 9, 2020 22:58:37 GMT
Ok...Cool... I've got a better idea of your question. I am rusty on my HoTT... but it is about the same as DBA 3- so here goes.
An individual element can do just about anything in its tactical move as long as no front corner moves more than allowed.
It doesn't need to wheel (though it can). It can spin, move diagonal, move in a curve, move backward, and more... as long as its front corners don't exceed the movement allowance.
It also of course must follow the interpenetration, terrain, threat zone, and other movement rules.
Groups on the other hand can only move straight forward and/or wheel (forward only). There may be a move to the side to line up if close to the enemy... I can't remember with HoTT.
So, there you go. Groups move straight usually. Individual elements often don't.
To answer your other question... yes, many battles will see battle lines clash at first. As combat makes a mess of things you see less of this. The side that keeps its elements well organized in lines and groups often wins.
The DBX games are really about organization and move(pip) management. This is what wins them more than anything else...
Take this from someone that has won his share of tournaments.
Joe Collins
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Post by sheffmark on Dec 10, 2020 15:05:52 GMT
Joe gives a great summary above.
There are some significant differences between HOTT and DBA 3 though.
For example, in HOTT if you're in the threat zone of two enemy units you have to contact the one nearest to you, whereas in DBA3 you have the choice. These small differences and remembering what applies in which rule set can be a headache if you play both DBA and HOTT.
Struggling with movement is not unusual though. My eldest son found it difficult working out how to get his troops to where he wanted them, however once you've got it cracked it becomes second nature.
Of course if you haven't got great match ups in your battleline, after deployment, then you are going to want to try and move things around to gain an advantage, but otherwise, as Joe says, generally players try and keep their troops together unless there's a tactical advantage in not doing so, but if you keep in mind the cost of moving units in future it will help. E.g. it may seem like a good idea to send an outflanking force around a wood, but as soon as they are out of sight of your general and further away than 600p they are going to cost 2 pips to move.
The best thing would probably be to play against other players, if you have anyone nearby who plays, in competitions, when they start up again or online. You may lose initially but at least you can see what other people do, how they play etc and it's a great way to learn rules you've missed when simply reading through on your own.
Cheers
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Post by derrickthewhite on Dec 10, 2020 15:52:30 GMT
Ok, I went back and read movement more closely. I was missing this line.
That helps with movement a lot. It is, of course, subject to restrictions on flanking and so forth, but this was driving me nuts.
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Post by stevie on Dec 10, 2020 17:02:05 GMT
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Post by derrickthewhite on Dec 11, 2020 16:59:39 GMT
The best thing would probably be to play against other players, if you have anyone nearby who plays, in competitions, when they start up again or online. You may lose initially but at least you can see what other people do, how they play etc and it's a great way to learn rules you've missed when simply reading through on your own. Cheers Yeah, that would be ideal. For now I'm just playing against myself in spare moments. No opportunity to really sit down with anyone and play. That's why I'm on this forum asking weird questions and giving battle reports. thanks! (is anyone playing in north alabama?)
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Post by lkmjbc on Dec 12, 2020 1:59:30 GMT
Well... We are in Nashville...how long a drive?
Joe Collins
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Post by derrickthewhite on Dec 12, 2020 19:48:26 GMT
Well... We are in Nashville...how long a drive? Joe Collins I'm around Huntsville, so about 2 hours. A bit long, but not bad.
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