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Post by aelbert on Oct 7, 2020 6:53:34 GMT
Hi,
Just having got my hands on a couple of dozen rather nice "Tin Soldier" 15mm Thracians with rhomphaia. I was wondering if anyone would balk at me using the Celtiberian list (II/39b) to create a Thracian (I/48) "blade" army.
Seems a bit of a waste to use them just as ordinairy Ax. As Phil Barker mentions in the Thracian list: the rhomphaia was a fearsome, shaft mounted 'blade'.
Rest of the army compilation matches: 1 Cv gen, 1 Lh, 4 Ps and 6 Bd.
Any thoughts?
Cheers, B
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Post by Cromwell on Oct 7, 2020 7:36:20 GMT
I say go for it. It's your army. You recruited the soldiers. It's now up to you how you train them and then give them their marching orders to where you see fit!
I have used a light wheeled gun form The War of The Roses as a substitute galloper gun during an English Civil War engagement. As long as I kept them screened by cavalry or tucked behind a hedge the fact their clothes were somewhat out of date and they being 20mm as posed to the 28mm ECW guys making them look like bombastic Hobbits, you really couldn't notice.
Nobody complained!
The advantages of solo play!
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Post by stevie on Oct 7, 2020 8:23:38 GMT
Seems a bit of a waste to use them just as ordinary Ax. As Phil Barker mentions in the Thracian list: the rhomphaia was a fearsome, shaft mounted 'blade'. Phil Barker also says at the top of page 3:- “Troops are defined by battlefield behaviour instead of the usual formations, armour, weapons and morale classes. We distinguish only between troops whose fighting style differers sufficiently to need to be treated differently by either their general or foe.”...and those with a ‘fearsome shaft-mounted curved-blade rhomphaia’ would act and need to be treated differently from ordinary javelin throwing evading peltasts! However, having a whole army of rhomphaia might be going too far. Perhaps having a maximum of two elements of 3Bd would be more appropriate, much like their II/52 cousins the Dacians (and the veteran Thracian Mercenaries in the II/35 Later Macedonian army would probably be an all 3Bd rhomphaia element as well).
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Post by snowcat on Oct 8, 2020 0:04:41 GMT
And then there is the line of thought that the rhomphaia was but a farming tool, and not a battlefield weapon...
...but I say "Go for it!"
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Post by Cromwell on Oct 8, 2020 7:06:27 GMT
Snowcat makes an interesting point. The use of farming implements in combat such as pitch forks and scythes etc.
Peasants and the like make up hordes or during the English Civil War "Clubmen" and they would invariably be armed with such items including billhooks, sickles and priests (club used to despatch game or smaller domestic animals).
I wonder if we sometimes underestimate the effectiveness of such people. They were not drilled, trained in military formations or instilled with much discipline. But they were experts with their chosen tool or weapon. Knew how to use it and had the strength to wield it for long hours. I for one would not want to be on the wrong end of a pitch Fork!
However I do ponder how effective a weapon the scythe would be. The blade tends to face inward and you cut with a sweeping stroke across your body the blade about ankle height. Great for taking out the legs of your opponent, but leaving you very exposed above the waist and the weapon would become cumbersome and unbalanced if raised high where the swing would tend to pull your opponent towards you.
Be interesting to hear what others think on this subject.
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Post by aelbert on Oct 8, 2020 8:41:30 GMT
Hi, Well as some lists classify woodsmen with treecutting axes as blades I would say the rhompaia in the hands of a Thracian warrior would seriously compete for this honour . But then again I would also favor Alexanders Hypaspists and Hannibal's vetrans to be "Blades" (becuase of battlefield behaviour not actual weapons) so I might be a bit biased. Cheers, B
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Post by stevie on Oct 8, 2020 8:59:01 GMT
And then there is the line of thought that the rhomphaia was but a farming tool, and not a battlefield weapon... Hmmm...it might be a bit odd to have a brave fallen warrior buried in his tomb with his favourite agricultural instrument...it would be like a modern paratrooper’s tombstone depicting him in full battle gear but carrying a garden rake...
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Post by snowcat on Oct 8, 2020 11:26:22 GMT
And yet very heated arguments were had on the subject decades ago...and IIRC PB was one of the gents involved.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Oct 8, 2020 12:53:15 GMT
And then there is the line of thought that the rhomphaia was but a farming tool, and not a battlefield weapon... Hmmm...it might be a bit odd to have a brave fallen warrior buried in his tomb with his favourite agricultural instrument...it would be like a modern paratrooper’s tombstone depicting him in full battle gear but carrying a garden rake... That is hilarious.
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Post by martin on Oct 8, 2020 13:25:11 GMT
Snowcat makes an interesting point. The use of farming implements in combat such as pitch forks and scythes etc. Peasants and the like make up hordes or during the English Civil War "Clubmen" and they would invariably be armed with such items including billhooks, sickles and priests (club used to despatch game or smaller domestic animals). I wonder if we sometimes underestimate the effectiveness of such people. They were not drilled, trained in military formations or instilled with much discipline. But they were experts with their chosen tool or weapon. Knew how to use it and had the strength to wield it for long hours. I for one would not want to be on the wrong end of a pitch Fork! However I do ponder how effective a weapon the scythe would be. The blade tends to face inward and you cut with a sweeping stroke across your body the blade about ankle height. Great for taking out the legs of your opponent, but leaving you very exposed above the waist and the weapon would become cumbersome and unbalanced if raised high where the swing would tend to pull your opponent towards you. Be interesting to hear what others think on this subject. I have a vague recollection that some peasants/rebels (eg Monmouth rebellion, 1685) used scythes but remounted them on the shaft to produce something more akin to a glaive (mebbe).
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Post by elliesdad on Oct 8, 2020 15:56:57 GMT
Yes, that’s my recollection too. Google images for English Civil War scythe men shows plenty of examples. I have used a scythe in my youth and it would certainly be an impractical weapon “as is”. Removing the blade and remounting onto a decent shaft would make a much more sensible and practical weapon. Geoff
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Post by snowcat on Oct 8, 2020 22:03:43 GMT
Hi, Well as some lists classify woodsmen with treecutting axes as blades I would say the rhompaia in the hands of a Thracian warrior would seriously compete for this honour . But then again I would also favor Alexanders Hypaspists and Hannibal's vetrans to be "Blades" (becuase of battlefield behaviour not actual weapons) so I might be a bit biased. Cheers, B Yes, the woodsmen with big axes as Bd does seem a bit more HoTT than 'historical', but it's usually a singular colourful element in an army, as opposed to a much larger force of such types.
I wish I could remember the fuss over the Thracian rhomphaia but it was so long ago; possibly a dispute over whether it was a warrior's grave at all, or why there weren't more rhomphaias found in other graves. Dunno.
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Post by Cromwell on Oct 9, 2020 7:09:27 GMT
Yes, that’s my recollection too. Google images for English Civil War scythe men shows plenty of examples. I have used a scythe in my youth and it would certainly be an impractical weapon “as is”. Removing the blade and remounting onto a decent shaft would make a much more sensible and practical weapon. Geoff Now you have said that it has awakened memories of a book I read many moons ago on the Monmouth Rebellion and it did indeed state that the agricultural implements were adapted.
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Post by Cromwell on Oct 9, 2020 7:11:31 GMT
And then there is the line of thought that the rhomphaia was but a farming tool, and not a battlefield weapon... Hmmm...it might be a bit odd to have a brave fallen warrior buried in his tomb with his favourite agricultural instrument...it would be like a modern paratrooper’s tombstone depicting him in full battle gear but carrying a garden rake... Perhaps your paratroop fell during operation "Market Garden" !
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Oct 9, 2020 11:33:46 GMT
Hmmm...it might be a bit odd to have a brave fallen warrior buried in his tomb with his favourite agricultural instrument...it would be like a modern paratrooper’s tombstone depicting him in full battle gear but carrying a garden rake... Perhaps your paratroop fell during operation "Market Garden" ! Nice one.
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