|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 19, 2020 13:21:05 GMT
So far what I'm not seeing is anything that supports the discrepancy between Ax and Wb vs mounted under 3.0. Nothing.
Stevie, I get what you're saying about warband armies in depth vs width, but...taking my examples earlier, requiring Wb to provide rear support to get the same CF3 vs mounted as half as many Ax creates an even bigger degree of disbelief to my mind. So you'd need twice as many Gallic warriors to have the equivalent strength of a unit of Thracian javelinmen against mounted. No. If the rear support idea was for some other benefit for warband I'd be all ears, but not just to reach equity with Ax vs mounted, no way.
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Sept 19, 2020 14:47:28 GMT
Slightly off topic, I’ve done a bit of research into Chnodomar king of the Alamanni, and found this excellent detailed article about the Battle of Strasbourg in 357 AD:- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Strasbourg (the map is particularly impressive). For the left wing of the Alamanni army, I have their general dismounted as 4Wb with an element of Ps and/or some elements of 3Bow in a small piece of rough going (if the wheat field was tall enough to conceal light foot, then it could be considered rough... ...and 4Kn lose their ‘quick kill’ in rough). As for the extra Alamanni numbers, I’d have their Warbands as ‘decorative double bases’. (See fanaticus.boards.net/post/10670 ) Although it doesn’t give us any new insight into the present Wb v mounted debate, this reconstruction is ideal for the recreation of this historic battle on our wargames tables. |
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 20, 2020 2:44:52 GMT
Yes, quite familiar with the Wiki version of the battle. I could show you another version of how the battle and its forces looked in the book, 'Warfare in the Classical World' by John Warry, which I've had since I was a lad.
Your idea of the left wing of the Alamannic army - who's where and with what in support, and in a small piece of rough going!!! - is very 'favourable', so you'll forgive me if I smile.
Fact: Regiments of clibanarii, the spearhead of the Roman heavy cavalry, charged dismounted German noble cavalry (including their chieftain) formed up as warband alongside and at the behest of the bulk of the German horde. The German Wb received their charge and dealt with them summarily, resulting in the rout of the best Roman heavy cavalry from the field and the redeployment of the remainder.
Wb should be CF3 vs mounted (just like Ax).
|
|
|
|
Post by Baldie on Sept 20, 2020 9:29:23 GMT
Isn't the game meant to be a bit more abstract than just a fight.
Cavs ability to get where they want when they want do a bit of taunting the warband etc, vs aux ability to manover, chuck stuff at cav and dictate the fight a bit more.
Dont get me wrong I wish warband were better as my Ancient British are my first love but do get duffed up alot.
|
|
|
|
Post by martin on Sept 20, 2020 9:54:44 GMT
Maybe it’s a reflection of the fiery warband feeling powerless as the enemy mounted pelt them with missiles, all from out of reach .... whatever, I have no probs with the balance as written...
. But that’s just me - I don’t have the burning urge to change aspects of the rules to fit my world view. I just modify how I play the army to fit the rules author’s view of combat.
|
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Sept 20, 2020 11:11:12 GMT
Maybe Chnodomar just rolled a 6-1?  |
|
|
|
Post by macbeth on Sept 21, 2020 0:07:06 GMT
Of course the punchline to the DBA3 change in Wb and Ax combat factors vs Mounted comes with the Prussian Army It consists of Noble Horsemen - Cv/4Wb Immediate Followers - 3Wb Much Less Valourous Peasant Farmers - 3ax (these are the descriptions of the troop types in the list ) So it seems the fault in Wb lies in too much valour! Strip away the derring-do and the survivability goes up (not by much I'll admit because Ax are still ridden down by Kn, but the Prussian Peasants have a 16.66% greater survivability rate against Teutonic Knighs  Cheers |
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 21, 2020 0:30:18 GMT
Maybe all Wb need to do is, like Jim suggests, roll lots of 6-1s like Chnodomar. Funny how in DBMM Wb and Ax share the same CFs (3/3). Same vs foot, same vs mounted. Ax can use Ps rear support in the enemy bound against Wb and most mtd, but so can various other foot types, and the Ps have to be paid for and put there. Same author too. Historically, warband should be a challenge to control, even difficult in large numbers. Warband armies without adequate cavalry support should face problems being flanked on their wings by enemy mounted. But...warband should not fight like muppets. Currently solid warband (who the author refers to as keeping a shield wall in adversity and fighting it out toe-to-toe) have only half the CF (2) vs mounted as shieldwall Sp (CF4). Meanwhile, Ax (even 3Ax) have CF3. Hang on - what?!!! It's not just about fighting? 3Ax are also flinging javelins at their mounted opponents to put them off? Fair enough. Then that should balance out their lesser fighting skill / willingness and/or equipment in hand-to-hand when the enemy mounted close. Not provide them with a magical extra bonus on top. As for just modifying the use of an army to fit the author's view of combat, well that's fine, but it doesn't help improve the use of those armies if there is an issue with the rules directly affecting them. All those house rules were created for a reason, some of which are widely accepted and used with the RAW, as 'improvements'. |
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 21, 2020 0:33:00 GMT
Of course the punchline to the DBA3 change in Wb and Ax combat factors vs Mounted comes with the Prussian Army It consists of Noble Horsemen - Cv/4Wb Immediate Followers - 3Wb Much Less Valourous Peasant Farmers - 3ax (these are the descriptions of the troop types in the list ) So it seems the fault in Wb lies in too much valour! Strip away the derring-do and the survivability goes up (not by much I'll admit because Ax are still ridden down by Kn, but the Prussian Peasants have a 16.66% greater survivability rate against Teutonic Knighs Cheers I see that you also see a certain issue... |
|
