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Post by stevie on May 9, 2020 19:12:11 GMT
Again I’m behind Menacussecundus (...if he pursues, so will I...  ) Pushed back elements cannot push back others, so stay rock still, leaving the blokes in front of ‘em nowhere in which to recoil, so they’re brown bread. (See figure 20f on page 29) Just to muddy the waters even more, I assume people realize that if say 3Kn pursues 1 BW, then any Spearmen behind them in column them will also pursue 1 BW. (And this applies even to usually ‘ static’ troops like Art, WWg, CP, Lit and CWg) |
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Post by scottrussell on May 9, 2020 21:13:11 GMT
A ha.
Fair cop. 20f does seem to cover the situation pretty accurately. i hadn't seen that. It certainly makes more sense that the front element is destroyed.
Scott
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Post by zendor on May 11, 2020 13:35:32 GMT
Just to muddy the waters even more, I assume people realize that if say 3Kn pursues 1 BW, then any Spearmen behind them in column them will also pursue 1 BW. (And this applies even to usually ‘ static’ troops like Art, WWg, CP, Lit and CWg) Oh, my God, this is too much. But I suppose that the end of the above sentence will stop this madness: "... must immediately pursue, but only if:..."So, all elements in a column but only if they are of appropriate type as mention below. I pray it to be true ...))  In general, if we take into account the text of the rules and its interpretation above that the entire column have to pursues, then in this case, if Cv element is forced to recoil (let's say 1 BW), then the Kn will pursue (1 BW ahead), the Pk will also pursue (1/2 BW ahead) and make a gap in a column, Art will hold and this make another gap, Bd seems have to pursue too, but it can't due to Art in front, so it will also hold, and the last Ax will also hold. Therefore, to pursue in a column, element needs to meet two conditions: be behind the element which have to pursue and be included in the list below. Does it correspond to your opinion and maybe an experiences? (it's a question to everybody here, not only to Stevie) |
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Post by arnopov on May 11, 2020 14:59:31 GMT
It's a bit ambiguous how the phrase in brackets applies, but yes the consensus (Menacus, Martin, Stevie...) seems that the entire columns pursues as the first element. It's a bit odd, BUT not as problematic as elements in column doing a conditional pursuit (can of worms that).
Note that DBMM has something similar (also not totally crystal clear!):"All elements in any subsequent contiguous rank that are directly to the rear of a pursuing element and facing in the same direction, also pursue"
I lost the 1st game at the English Open 2018 to Martin (S.) due to that exact rule. I had a "deployment" column, i.e. against the edge of the deployment zone, ready to expand in turn 1, headed by two El's, including the boss (in 2nd rank iirc). I think I had pips of 1 for 3 consecutive rounds, and must have used the 1st round pip to expand the other "deployment column" (on the other flank). Anyway, the wily Martin sent a Cv, that got recoiled, but suckered the column. By that stage the pip cost to break the column was considerable, and the inevitable occurred,, 2 dead El, including the boss.
That was masterful and really quite beautiful, and a superb lesson, and since then I try not to forget to make sure that the flank deployers are NOT in a column (not so easy!), 1mm behind the 1st element or something.
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Post by menacussecundus on May 11, 2020 17:55:09 GMT
Just to muddy the waters even more, I assume people realize that if say 3Kn pursues 1 BW, then any Spearmen behind them in column them will also pursue 1 BW. (And this applies even to usually ‘ static’ troops like Art, WWg, CP, Lit and CWg) Oh, my God, this is too much. But I suppose that the end of the above sentence will stop this madness: "... must immediately pursue, but only if:..."So, all elements in a column but only if they are of appropriate type as mention below. I pray it to be true ...)) In general, if we take into account the text of the rules and its interpretation above that the entire column have to pursues, then in this case, if Cv element is forced to recoil (let's say 1 BW), then the Kn will pursue (1 BW ahead), the Pk will also pursue (1/2 BW ahead) and make a gap in a column, Art will hold and this make another gap, Bd seems have to pursue too, but it can't due to Art in front, so it will also hold, and the last Ax will also hold. Therefore, to pursue in a column, element needs to meet two conditions: be behind the element which have to pursue and be included in the list below. Does it correspond to your opinion and maybe an experiences? (it's a question to everybody here, not only to Stevie) If that were the case, why would the Pk pursue? (Pk only pursue enemy foot.) My view is that the entire column pursues 1BW. |
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Post by stevie on May 11, 2020 18:41:58 GMT
Just to muddy the waters even more, I assume people realize that if say 3Kn pursues 1 BW, then any Spearmen behind them in column them will also pursue 1 BW. (And this applies even to usually ‘ static’ troops like Art, WWg, CP, Lit and CWg) Oh, my God, this is too much. But I suppose that the end of the above sentence will stop this madness: "... must immediately pursue, but only if:..."So, all elements in a column but only if they are of appropriate type as mention below. I pray it to be true ...)) Ah but Zendor, I think you may be missing a bit. Pursuing on page 12 says:- “...an element whose close combat opponents recoil, flee or are destroyed ( and all elements in a column behind such an element) must immediately pursue, but only if:- (c) An element that is of Pk, Bd (but not CP, Lit or CWg) or Wb and that fought against any foot (except Psiloi) pursues ½ BW straight ahead.” So Pk, Bd and Wb only pursue ½ BW if they fought against foot (other than Ps). In your picture, did the Pk fight against foot?...no, it did not. Did the Pk fight against anybody?...again no. But they are in a column behind such a potentially pursuing element... ...as is the Art and all the other red elements. |
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Post by bob on May 11, 2020 22:55:12 GMT
Ditto to Stevie: the whole column moves forward behind the 3Kn. Phil was not explicit as to how far the following elements move, so we must assume that they move as far as the front element moves.
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Post by zendor on May 11, 2020 22:59:31 GMT
2 menacussecundus and stevieOh, it was just my inattention. But that doesn't change the point. Let's imagine green-blue Sp element instead of Cv. Sp element is destroyed and 3Kn pursue... so, the question is still the same. Are you really think that the Art (as well as e.g WWg, Ax, CP, Lit, ect) will pursue being in a column? I've drawn it...  |
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Post by Roland on May 12, 2020 2:27:09 GMT
I believe this whole question is answered by figure 20f in Purple
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Post by menacussecundus on May 12, 2020 7:33:31 GMT
You are right, Zendor. The type of enemy element doesn't change the point you were making.
To answer your question, yes. They are in a column behind an element which pursues, so they all pursue. Even the Art.
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Post by zendor on May 12, 2020 9:00:33 GMT
You are right, Zendor. The type of enemy element doesn't change the point you were making. To answer your question, yes. They are in a column behind an element which pursues, so they all pursue. Even the Art. It's hard for me to agree with you, menacussecundus. Pursuing Artillery is truly madness, don't you think so? Imo, Art do not belong to any type of elements that have to pursue. Therefore why will it pursue? My point is, to pursue while standing in column, both conditions have to be met: being in column + belonging to a certain type of element mentioned below. |
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Post by menacussecundus on May 12, 2020 10:07:41 GMT
You are right, Zendor. The type of enemy element doesn't change the point you were making. To answer your question, yes. They are in a column behind an element which pursues, so they all pursue. Even the Art. It's hard for me to agree with you, menacussecundus. Pursuing Artillery is truly madness, don't you think so? Imo, Art do not belong to any type of elements that have to pursue. Therefore why will it pursue? My point is, to pursue while standing in column, both conditions have to be met: being in column + belonging to a certain type of element mentioned below. Would you be happier if it were called "maintain cohesion and formation" instead of pursue, zendor? Because, in essence, that is what they are doing. Under the rules, Auxilia don't normally pursue either, neither do Spear or Bows. I believe they do if they are in a column and , if you want to rationalize this, it's because they have been told to stick to the unit in front. In order to work, I believe your interpretation would require further words to be added to condition (c). Pk, Bd and Wb need to have fought in order to pursue, so even elements which provide rear support will be left behind when the front element pursues. Thus your Pk would be +6 in the first bound of combat but only +3 if they win and pursue. I don't believe that is what is intended. (Of course, one might argue that elements count as rear support count as fighting - although that's not what the rules say - but, without these extra words, how would you justify a rear rank of Bd, which can't have fought and can't provide rear support, pursuing?) |
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Post by menacussecundus on May 12, 2020 10:37:47 GMT
One further thought, zendor. Does the thought of Art being pushed back by recoiling friends bother you as much as the thought of Art pursuing does?
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Post by stevie on May 12, 2020 11:11:51 GMT
I think that Menacussecundus has hit the nail right on its head.
Technically, the only troops that ‘pursue’ are those that fought the enemy.
Those in the rear (who can’t even see the enemy) are not really ‘pursuing’...
...they are just following the blokes in front of them, and will still to do so
no matter the reason of just WHY the blokes in front of them advanced
(unless specifically ordered not to do so during a voluntary Tactical Move,
but we are talking about a Combat Outcome, which is not voluntary).
Anyway, the rules quite clearly state that:-
“Pursuing...and all elements in a column behind such an element...”
Not ifs, no buts, and no exceptions. All is ALL, meaning everyone.
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Post by zendor on May 12, 2020 14:06:21 GMT
2 Stevie:
Why do you ignore the end of the phrase "... but only if:"? I mean the structure is that: "all elements in column ... but only if:", and the text is quite clear in that. Or do you think this "...but only if:" solely applies to the first element that formally in close combat?
2 Menacussecundus:
Yes, this is a good comment. I suppose, because the pushing back is forced by somebody else from the side it's a necessary measure, a "passive reaction". As opposed to pursuing, which is the result of a ferocious attack on the enemy and an advance in attempt to kill the survivors and take their positions (as said above in the text).
Well, if we take in to account that your point is rights, and all elements in the column have to pursue following the first element, so, how far will the Art pursue following 3Kn in this case?
Please, understand me, I do not want to make a hollow discussion, but my main goal is to get your reasoning, and as the result the rules.
I really can’t imagine the situation that is displayed by such behavior of the elements. In 2.2 the situation was clear and adequate. So what was the reason for such strange changes, and what for? Of course, we can fantasize anything to justify this, but it's totally unrealistic, imo.
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