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Post by ronisan on Nov 5, 2019 17:14:59 GMT
Hm - nobody answering any more? I mean ... my post says, that the answers so far are wrong since Oct 7.
You guys made it too complicated.
LH1 turns right to face the enemy LH in CC.
LH2* turns right to face the enemy CV in CC ... to achieve this, LH3 is moved back the minimum to make room for LH2.
That's all!
Cheers,
Ronald
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Post by paulisper on Nov 5, 2019 20:02:23 GMT
Hm - nobody answering any more? I mean ... my post says, that the answers so far are wrong since Oct 7. You guys made it too complicated. LH1 turns right to face the enemy LH in CC. LH2* turns right to face the enemy CV in CC ... to achieve this, LH3 is moved back the minimum to make room for LH2. That's all! Cheers, Ronald Ok, I'll take the bait. I disagree with this interpretation, going with the rules on p9 and 10, as you state, but also using diagrams 14b and 14c to support my argument that LH2 and LH3 turn as a column (as the Pikes do in the diagrammatic examples from the purple) to face the Cv in CC, but LH1 does not, as it isn't in full corner to corner contact with the opposing LH. P. |
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Post by ronisan on Nov 7, 2019 1:53:59 GMT
Hello P.
thank you for your reply.
Ok.
Fact 1: The attacking group (of LH + Cv) made a legal contact to the right flank edges of LH1 to LH3.
Fact 2: LH2 turns right into front edge to front edge contact with the enemy Cv.
Fact 3: LH1 turns right into front edge to front edge contact with the enemy LH (!) (see p. 10, first sentence: '… elements contacted to flank or rear by an enemy front edge turn to face …'). Already, your 'corner-to-corner-position' (see p. 9 '… or (c) in front edge to side edge contact with front corners in contact…') was fulfilled by the element of Cv in the group (see Fact 1). LH1 doesn't need that!
Now let's have a look at LH3?
Well - IMHO - diagram 14b and 14c show me that, if a column of two (or on a rare occasion of three) elements are being contacted by a 1BW-width front edge, only those elements turn to the contacting element, whose whole (or complete) flank edges were in contact.
An element with his flank edge only partially contacted (like Y1 in diagram 14c) is moved back to make room. The two elements of pikes in diagram 14b can be replaced by any two elements (there is no 'rear support' involved here) as long as their added flank edges (their depths) are not exceeding 1BW.
Therefore I wouldn't place LH3 behind LH2.
But … and that may be the argument to play it your way!?... The rules on p. 10 say that 'If an element so contacts the flanks of two enemy elements, both these turn to face it …'
So 'two elements' sounds like 'any two elements' even if the depths of two LH-bases exceeds 1BW.
So you would place LH3 behind LH2 (with rear edge of LH3 contacting flank edges of LH4 + 5) and repelling the enemy Cv to offer enough room!
Question: Would you only move back the enemy Cv (LH2 getting overlapped flank to flank by enemy LH) or would you adjust LH1 and enemy LH also keeping their front corner to front corner contact with their neighbours?
Cheers,
Ronald
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Post by paulisper on Nov 7, 2019 22:58:33 GMT
Hello P. thank you for your reply. Ok. Fact 1: The attacking group (of LH + Cv) made a legal contact to the right flank edges of LH1 to LH3. Fact 2: LH2 turns right into front edge to front edge contact with the enemy Cv. Fact 3: LH1 turns right into front edge to front edge contact with the enemy LH (!) (see p. 10, first sentence: '… elements contacted to flank or rear by an enemy front edge turn to face …'). Already, your 'corner-to-corner-position' (see p. 9 '… or (c) in front edge to side edge contact with front corners in contact…') was fulfilled by the element of Cv in the group (see Fact 1). LH1 doesn't need that! Now let's have a look at LH3? Well - IMHO - diagram 14b and 14c show me that, if a column of two (or on a rare occasion of three) elements are being contacted by a 1BW-width front edge, only those elements turn to the contacting element, whose whole (or complete) flank edges were in contact. An element with his flank edge only partially contacted (like Y1 in diagram 14c) is moved back to make room. The two elements of pikes in diagram 14b can be replaced by any two elements (there is no 'rear support' involved here) as long as their added flank edges (their depths) are not exceeding 1BW. Therefore I wouldn't place LH3 behind LH2. But … and that may be the argument to play it your way!?... The rules on p. 10 say that 'If an element so contacts the flanks of two enemy elements, both these turn to face it …' So 'two elements' sounds like 'any two elements' even if the depths of two LH-bases exceeds 1BW. So you would place LH3 behind LH2 (with rear edge of LH3 contacting flank edges of LH4 + 5) and repelling the enemy Cv to offer enough room! Question: Would you only move back the enemy Cv (LH2 getting overlapped flank to flank by enemy LH) or would you adjust LH1 and enemy LH also keeping their front corner to front corner contact with their neighbours? Cheers, Ronald Ok, I’ll go with LH1 turning to face the contacting LH. I think I’d only move the Cv back to allow enough space for LH2 & 3 to lineup behind one another... the rest remains the same... P |
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Post by ronisan on Nov 8, 2019 10:31:44 GMT
Hello P.
I hoped you’d said that.
Happy gaming,
Ronald.
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Post by j on Nov 8, 2019 13:51:19 GMT
Paulisper, I may have misunderstood what you are saying here but I'm not sure where "only those elements turn to the contacting element, whose whole (or complete) flank edges were in contact" comes from. Are you saying that if the 40mm front of an element contacted the flank of 2 x 30mm deep elements in column only the first element would be turned to face, the second being pushed back because it was only partially flanked. Again, apologies if I have got this wrong... Turning to Face Flank or Rear Contact p12 just says "If an element so contacts the flanks of two enemy elements, both these turn to face it if the first must, the second moving to behind the first. On the rare occasions that a third element is contacted, it is pushed back (p11) to make room for the others to turn". It doesn't mention "partial" contact as a reason for being pushed back, just the fact that a third element would be pushed back. 14c is limited in that it shows 3 x 15mm elements being contacted but surely the reason Y does not turn is because it is a third element & not because it is not one "whose whole (or complete) flank edges were in contact"? Or am I overthinking as usual?  Regards, j |
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Post by Baldie on Nov 8, 2019 17:10:52 GMT
I am not commenting.
Basically cos i aint got a clue what you talking about.
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Post by paulisper on Nov 8, 2019 17:19:57 GMT
Paulisper, I may have misunderstood what you are saying here but I'm not sure where "only those elements turn to the contacting element, whose whole (or complete) flank edges were in contact" comes from. Are you saying that if the 40mm front of an element contacted the flank of 2 x 30mm deep elements in column only the first element would be turned to face, the second being pushed back because it was only partially flanked. Again, apologies if I have got this wrong... Turning to Face Flank or Rear Contact p12 just says "If an element so contacts the flanks of two enemy elements, both these turn to face it if the first must, the second moving to behind the first. On the rare occasions that a third element is contacted, it is pushed back (p11) to make room for the others to turn". It doesn't mention "partial" contact as a reason for being pushed back, just the fact that a third element would be pushed back. 14c is limited in that it shows 3 x 15mm elements being contacted but surely the reason Y does not turn is because it is a third element & not because it is not one "whose whole (or complete) flank edges were in contact"? Or am I overthinking as usual? Regards, j I’m amending my thoughts here, based on the previous couple of posts. LH1 will turn, as it has the group in contact with its flank, to face the attacking LH. LH 2 & 3 will turn to face and fight the Cv, which needs to back up sufficiently for this to happen. Diagrams or photos would help!! P |
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Post by j on Nov 9, 2019 0:58:41 GMT
Well, that brings me back to what I thought was the solution! Thanks for that...
Unfortunately, as an unreconstucted Luddite I cannot fathom how to upload diagrams or photographs to this site as any attempt lead to my computer telling me I am an idiot. This means my inadequate descriptions must remain my only method of describing my dilemma.
Apologies & regards,
j
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Post by ronisan on Nov 11, 2019 21:38:42 GMT
Hello J., I just thought, that my interpretation of elements with „only completely contacted flank edges“ turning to face the contacting element, is a way to minimize the number of elements, which need to be adjusted. By the way, how would you contact all of a 3 elements deep column of mounted troops in its flanks ... with just one element? ;-). Cheers, Ronald
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Post by j on Nov 12, 2019 1:06:39 GMT
Hello J., I just thought, that my interpretation of elements with „only completely contacted flank edges“ turning to face the contacting element, is a way to minimize the number of elements, which need to be adjusted. By the way, how would you contact all of a 3 elements deep column of mounted troops in its flanks ... with just one element? ;-). Cheers, Ronald If I understand you correctly, a single 40mm frontage element contacting 3 x 15mm deep elements in column in the flank would have full contact with the first 2 elements & partial contact with the third. In this case, the rules clearly state that the first 2 elements would turn to face the threat while the third would be pushed back to make room. TURNING TO FACE FLANK OR REAR p12 "If an element so contacts the Flanks of two enemy elements, both of these turn to face it if the first must, the second moving to behind the first. On the rare occasions that a third element is contacted, it is pushed back (p11) to make room for the others to turn" As far as I can see, a single element with 40mm frontage could only contact 2 mounted elements (2 x 30mm deep) in the flank - both would turn to face & the third would be unaffected. The rules do not mention fully or partially contacted elements, only the first 3 elements so contacted. But my original post complicated matters because there were 2 elements contacting the flank of the 2 wide, 3 deep element column. I am satisfied with the consensus so far. Regards, j |
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