|
|
Post by greedo on Sept 25, 2019 21:18:23 GMT
With regards to the “littoral” flanking move, how about same rules as littoral landings but applies to armies who’s home is Steppe.
2nd lines and reserves to deal with those pesky flankers will then be needed, just like littoral landings. And it’s a risky venture.
|
|
|
|
Post by paddy649 on Sept 25, 2019 22:53:44 GMT
OK - so I managed a quick play test tonight and hit a problem.....well two problems...well I started and restarted the same play test a number of times until it worked!
The scenario was Skythians vs Mountain Indians but it hardly matters...
The truth is that the Outfanking Manoeuvre house rule is so counter productive it stinks! The idea was to pose a threat to the more static army's flanks. However, when faced with an Outflanking Manoeuvre the opposition merely anchors on the secure flank and the baseline, contracting their frontage to suit and making it harder for the LH army to turn a flank than with the extra PIPs alone. Not to mention that it extends all the very real problems with Littoral Landings like teleporting troops that magically appear inside units TZs. I tried to make it an option that you chose to Outflank or get extra PIPs - but I can't see any reason to choose to isolate 2-3 of your units behind enemy lines when they are prepared for your arrival. So I found that the Indians could place their bow on the "vulnerable flank" and shoot the Outflanking LH to pieces before they got going. Even the Evade rule just got the LH to flee back to their start lines...so why not just start from there anyway!
Please delete the proposal for Outflanking Manoeuvre - playtesting reveals it doesn't work. So I started again....
Next up was the Evade rule. LH already flee from everything except mounted, Bows or Ps. So the only element the Evade rule would change is Bows shooting, Elephants, Knights, Psloi and Camels. BUT LH already QK Elephants and Knights - so that is a risk/reward judgement. Leaving only Ps - which is a 50/50 call and Bow. Now if in front edge contact with Bow (in my book) LH deserve to die. So that only leaves Bow shooting.....which is a rock/paper/scissors decision. If you're LH with additional PIPs can't stay out of the range of Bow then you aren't using them right and you have lost part of the flavour of the game that the additional PIPs added. So this house rule also started smelling when subjected to a play test. The Skythians had less of a concern about the Indian LB because they could just Evade and so it was a far less interesting battle and took longer to achieve less.
Please delete the proposal for Element Enhancement -Evade - playtesting reveals it is unnecessary. So I started again.....
That left me with only the additional PIP rule. Which again worked.....no I'd say it worked well. When used on its own it gave me an enjoyable and close game with LH behaving as LH should. It eventually ended 4-3 to the Indians who were playing at home on dense terrain and shot up 2LH with Jumbo taking a third and a fourth getting hit by a 3Pk column and hard flanked. The Indians losing their LH (obvs) and a stray Ax.
Again the extra PIPs wasn't a magic bullet. It is a slight tweak that turns LH heavy armies from complete dogs into competitors. Now that was just playing the +1 per 4LH option. Which leads me to the conclusion that my next playtests should be +1 per 3LH on the table and follow the Keep It Simple Stupid proviso.
Oh.......and the free move for one LH group doesn't work. It unfairly advantages armies with 2LH, breaks down in the Tetris phase and doesn't add sufficient manoeuvreability to real LH heavy armies. Playtests have already shown that!
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 25, 2019 23:00:02 GMT
It seems to me that this LH fix is rapidly spiralling out of control, and what originally started out as a very simple idea is becoming bloated, overcomplicated, and fatally buried under the sheer weight of alternative suggestions. Well, here is yet another one.  LH elements/groups get 1 free subsequent moveForgive me but I can’t remember who first suggested this, but it does have merit. Forget about ‘extra PIPs for LH’ (which has lots of complications). Instead, make faster movement be a built-in ability of LH. So LH armies have the same PIP roll as their enemies, but after making a tactical move single LH elements or pure LH groups get a single free subsequent move (that can be enhanced by more subsequent moves if they have the PIPs), which like all subsequent moves cannot enter within 1 BW of the enemy. No need for ‘extra PIPs’, no need for Littoral ‘teleporting’...LH reach their locations naturally, by moving across the table. The only problem with this is it segregates LH from other troops - mixed groups of LH and CV/Kn will gain no benefit if they want to stay together. Still, it is mind-numbingly simple, and has the right effect of making LH more mobile and able to run rings around their opponents once they have paid for the first LH tactical move (like the Numidians did to the Roman Cavalry during the 2nd Punic War). (If you like, limit it to only those armies that have say 6 or 8 x LH in their original order-of-battle)Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
That was me. I edited my original post when I realised that with high PIP rolls, the free subsequent moves can get out of hand...
At the time, I didn't think it fair to limit the rule to armies with more than 'x' LH, based on the principle that the ability was intrinsic to LH irrespective of how many there might be. But that left me with the problem of rolling a '6' and potentially getting 6 free subsequent moves for LH elements/groups. I was then trying to tone it back a little, when I switched to +1 free LH move per 4LH.
The post then became the '+1 free LH move per 4LH' idea.
You still think my original 'free subsequent move for LH' idea has merit?
Each LH element/group would be limited to a maximum of a 3rd move (in good going) as it is in the rules now. They would just get one of those moves for free. So needing 1 PIP for 2 moves, or 2 PIPs for 3 moves. This would need to be playtested, as when I thought I'd had a 'Eureka!' moment with this rule, the high PIP scenario struck me and it appeared 'too good'. But...maybe it'll play fine and my concerns were unfounded.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Sept 25, 2019 23:10:02 GMT
Can’t argue with several good tests Paddy!
I think I mischaracterized the problem. So it’s not that LH aren’t strong enough. It’s that LOTS of LH aren’t doing what they historically could.
In that case I’m all in on the +1 /4 LH unless testing reveals that /3 is somehow better.
Any arguments for or against using a d8, d10, d12 for pips? Too strong on the high side? Too big a swings? Just not DBA?
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 25, 2019 23:13:58 GMT
Can’t argue with several good tests Paddy! I think I mischaracterized the problem. So it’s not that LH aren’t strong enough. It’s that LOTS of LH aren’t doing what they historically could. In that case I’m all in on the +1 /4 LH unless testing reveals that /3 is somehow better. Any arguments for or against using a d8, d10, d12 for pips? Too strong on the high side? Too big a swings? Just not DBA? I think it'll fall into the 'just not DBA' bag. Even if it worked, I think it'll still end up there. |
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Sept 26, 2019 0:27:16 GMT
I think your idea has merit Snowcat (needs playtesting of course).  Just to recap:- " Each LH or pure LH group that pays PIPs to move gets a free single subsequent move" Roll '1' PIP and only 1 element/group can move (then make a free subsequent move). Roll '6' PIPs and 6 elements/groups can move (and EACH can make a free subsequent move, if the groups stay together and don't split up). But you're gonna have to pay for each tactical move to get that free subsequent move. That'll give LH armies the mobility to run rings around their opponents... ...but not into contact, because subsequent moves cannot go within 1 BW of the enemy, although the initial moves can. No need for extra PIPs, no teleporting, and LH moves naturally across the table. And the more LH you have the more you can move, PIPs permitting of course. (In effect, LH can move 4 BW into contact, or 8 BW if they keep 1 BW away from the enemy.But only if they pay PIPs for the privilege, stay together, and keep in good going)Let's see what others think... |
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 26, 2019 0:46:47 GMT
Yeah I admit I liked the idea initially, but partly because my previous ideas had been whipped, as soon as the concern about high-PIPs surfaced, I changed my idea entirely and edited it out. Ironic, huh? I added this little bit to my recent post above in case you missed it: "Each LH element/group would be limited to a maximum of a 3rd move (in good going) as it is in the rules now. They would just get one of those moves for free. So needing 1 PIP for 2 moves, or 2 PIPs for 3 moves. This would need to be playtested, as when I thought I'd had a 'Eureka!' moment with this rule, the high PIP scenario struck me and it appeared 'too good'. But...maybe it'll play fine and my concerns were unfounded." I think we're on the same wavelength with this. If anything I've added is not in line with your thinking, let me know. Cheers |
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Sept 26, 2019 0:50:18 GMT
I like the free subsequent move because it affects all LH instead of just the high LH armies (yay Thessalians!). But it magnifies the effect the more LH you have so LH heavy armies get more of a benefit.
A 1 pip roll is still a 1 pip roll, and only the group that you order can take advantage. It smells better than giving LH a regular move of 10BW because of the limitation of non contact.
A question:
Will it benefit LH further out, beyond the enemy’s line?
I.e Is the original problem that LH can’t move far enough, or is the problem that with LH flying around, there’s never enough pips for them to be the single element tanglefoot that they are supposed to be?
This new rule would solve the former but not necessarily the latter.
I guess it comes down to how LH are supposed to be used. Are they a collection of single elements buzzing here and there, or are they a single block that can suddenly appear where you least expected them?
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 26, 2019 0:59:05 GMT
I like the free subsequent move because it affects all LH instead of just the high LH armies (yay Thessalians!). But it magnifies the effect the more LH you have so LH heavy armies get more of a benefit. A 1 pip roll is still a 1 pip roll, and only the group that you order can take advantage. It smells better than giving LH a regular move of 10BW because of the limitation of non contact. A question: Will it benefit LH further out, beyond the enemy’s line? I.e Is the original problem that LH can’t move far enough, or is the problem that with LH flying around, there’s never enough pips for them to be the single element tanglefoot that they are supposed to be? This new rule would solve the former but not necessarily the latter. I guess it comes down to how LH are supposed to be used. Are they a collection of single elements buzzing here and there, or are they a single block that can suddenly appear where you least expected them? I think it might assist both.
Re your last question, again both. I've read accounts of large groups of LH breaking into small groups dispersing here and there. But equally, I'm sure the Mongols could have provided that single block that appeared where you least expected too.  |
|
|
|
Post by paddy649 on Sept 26, 2019 1:03:30 GMT
Greedo - you are sort of there. I'd put it "Its not that LH aren't strong enough in themselves given their strength lies in their mobility and so LOTs of LH are disadvantaged by being both Relitively weak individually as well as being unhistorically immobile." It is like owning a super fast sports car and then only driving it in London the elements just aren't given the chance to demonstrate their strengths.
Stevie - OK I had misinterpreted your idea. I'll try that. However, my previous experiences were that the additional PIPs were most needed in the "Tetris" phase of the game to move exposed units out of harms way and to swarm onto isolated and vulnerable units to get the kills...which if they are free subsequent moves doesn't help.
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 26, 2019 1:45:15 GMT
"Hey Ma! Stevie put forward one of MY ideas! Now I'm in with a chance!"
...
(nah, you wait...!)
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Sept 26, 2019 2:31:20 GMT
I'll do this Book by Book, and will just keep updating the list as I go. I think that's the complete list of armies with 4 or more LH available to them. If I've missed any, let me know and I'll add them in.
Nicely done. I think I may add one or two more to the collection.
No worries. I'm just glad Paddy didn't ask for a list of armies with 3+LH in them, or I'd still be going! |
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Sept 26, 2019 7:51:43 GMT
I think we're on the same wavelength with this. Yep, we is. Originally I was thinking of limiting it to just one subsequent move, but then I thought what the hell... ...the current rules already allows LH three moves a bound (if you have the PIPs to pay for ‘em). We will just be making it 1 PIP cheaper. It gives roughly the same effect as Paddy’s extra LH PIPs, but without any complications. I also was originally thinking of making LH elements stay in a group when they make the free subsequent move...but then I remembered something that Phil Barker once said:- “We shouldn’t make rules to prevent players from making mistakes” So if someone wants to spend 1 PIP to tactically move a group of elements, then use the free subsequent move to split the group and have elements scatter in different directions, let them. Just don’t come crying to us when they get counter-attacked, overlapped, and hard flanked! I like the way your suggestion has LH zooming passed the opponent’s main battleline to float menacingly near the enemy’s flank or rear, waiting for the right moment to pounce. And you can move a lot of elements into contact for just a single PIP, if they are in range and in a group. And best of all is its simplicity...the only thing needing to be added to the rules is:- “ The first LH subsequent move costs zero PIPs” That’s it. Nothing else need be changed.  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Sept 26, 2019 7:53:12 GMT
"Hey Ma! Stevie put forward one of MY ideas! Now I'm in with a chance!" Oh, and your cheque hasn’t arrived yet... |
|
|
|
Post by Baldie on Sept 26, 2019 9:18:39 GMT
LH force with more than X light horse can do littoral style landing on either flank from board edge on any turn not just first.
Would make me terrified of my flanks.
|
|
