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Post by sicadi on Sept 27, 2019 14:11:31 GMT
Hi all
I have spent the morning and early afternoon testing solo. Attila (8 LH, 2 Wb, Kn & Ps) v Eastern Patricians (3 Kn, 3 Bd, 2 Ax, 2 LH & 2 Ps)
3 games that kept the same terrain (hamlet in sector 1 close to halfway and within 40 mm of side edge and a medium sized difficult hill in sector 3 placed fairly centrally. Woods and rocky also selected but failed to place as in sector 1 with BUA) Romans defended.
Also kept same deployment for both armies.
Set out to play both armies aggressively. No sitting back bunkering up.
Game 1 played RAW. 4-2 Huns. Wb and Kn took out the 3 legions and LH ganged up on Roman Kn filling the gap. Both Wb died.
So not really LH doing damage and had the Roman Kn survived the Huns were looking vulnerable next turn.
Game 2 played with Snowcats suggested “free” successive move. 4-3 to the Romans. Wbs & Kn letting the side down again but did notice what Stevie has just suggested. Moving in any formation initially gives large groups of LH plenty of latitude to reorganise with lots of “free” single element moves and I did like that. However I also noticed when the fighting started a bad pip roll stuffs you. No initial move so no subsequent move either. So same as everyone else and maybe it should be... Got to find a way to make them better in combat
Game 3 I played again with Snowcats suggestion, but attempted a combat tweak. A supporting rank of LH now did not add +1, but instead gave a -1 to the enemy. No difference in the initial CF differential, but it does give lower starting factors which marginally improves the chances of doubling something, but retains the double jeopardy factor with flees compromised. Romans won again 4-3.
Combat tweak no effect, but I did note in game 2 that had I been using it, a Bd would have been killed and not recoiled.
So sorry Paddy didn’t test your suggested idea. Preferred the simpler, more generic outlook. LH are LH are LH.....
These are only house rules after all, and essentially it’s what works and gives what we feel is a better game than RAW for the individual. But I have to say my perception of LH in DBA has changed for the better, but I still wouldn’t use them in open competition.
And I have to say Attila v Pat Roms gives a great game.
Craig
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 27, 2019 14:41:40 GMT
Stevie, yes I know that shooters can't shoot if moved more than 1BW. The point I was making was that if all PIPs are getting spent on on flank then putting Shooters in range then gives them 25% kill chance thereafter.
Yes under free subsequent moves you can do that but the line remains outside 1BW of the enemy.....
...anyway I've been playtesting.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 27, 2019 15:17:47 GMT
So today's playtest was Skythians: Cav(Gen), 11 x LH vs Vedic Indians HCh(Gen), 4 x LCh, 5 x 3 Bw, El, 7Hd. I deliberately chose this match up because it looked one sided to me - so much so that I thought it would be unplayable with RAW. I wasn't disappointed.
Against the odds Skythians won terrain and a couple of gentle hills went central and RG sat in the corners. The Skythians deployed in 3 groups of 4. Then the only interesting thing in the game happened. The Indians discovered that they couldn't deploy LCh into the hatched area restricting their deployment frontage to 7BW. I don't know if that is in the rules - it says Cav can deploy there not LCh....there may be a FAQ I'm not aware of. Anyway this gave a spark of interest to the battle because now the Indians had flanks. They deployed LCh, Bow, Bw, El, Bw, Bw, LCh with a second line supporting. First bound and the Skythians roll a 2 for PIPs creating the only interesting tactical choice in the game. Go full pelt down one flank or single move on both. I reckoned the former would prevent the Indians extending their line so did that keeping out of Bow range behind a hill. Indians also rolled a 3 for PIPs and moved their Bow and one LCh onto the hill. Shooting killed a LH. Skythian PIPs - a 4! Moved into Contact with the Second LCh, with supported LH and overlaps - couldn't hard flank as didn't start behind the line. This put me out of Bow Range. Rest of my army advanced. LH bounced off the LCH. Indian PIPs a 5. LCh Hard flanked the supported LH and bow moved to shoot LH on other flank. Shooting a LH died. Combat the LCh bounced. Skythian PIPs - a 2 can't do much with that advabced the Supported LH against the LCh. Couldn't move others out of Bow range. Shooting a LH dies. Indian PIPs enough to hard flank the Supported LH and move Bows into range. Shooting a LH died. Combat a LH died. That was it! A dull pointless game. 4-0 to the Indians who were so dominant it wasn't enjoyable. I recommend never playing this match up again with RAW.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 27, 2019 15:58:43 GMT
Next up...same armies, same terrain, same deployment.......but this time I planned playtesting +1 per 3 LH on table and free second move until one or other broke down. Skythians rolled a 1 for PIPs so I could choose free subsequent move and be in the same position as the first game or take 4PIPs under +1/3LH and advance down both. I took 4 PIPs and was level with both Indian flanks. Indian PIPs rolled 2 giving them a tactical decision - which flank to prepare to receive first. The Indian left had some RG so they moved on the right to confront with LCh and Bow. Shooters forced a recoil. Skythian PIPs a 4 became 7. LH hit open LCh flanks on both sides of the table and the General advanced into Bow range. LCh turned to face but one on the left died while a LH on the right was killed. Indian PIPs can't remember but not enough to deal with both flanks simultaneously. Single elements of Bow swung to get LH into arc while others pulled back. Shooting recoiled LH into the RG and combat recoilled the supported LH on the right. Skythian PIPs - they needed 7 and got 6. Shooting pushed the Skythian General back and hard flanking on the right resulted in a Skythian recoil. Indian PIPs - 3. Arrrg not enough! Bow advanced and 2 LCh hard flanked a LH. Shooting killed a LH everything else was indecisive. Skythian PIPs - lots even though the 3 LH casualties now only gave +2. General charged Bow and LH hard flanked all over the place. No shooting as all targets were in combat. General killed a bow other combats indecisive. Indian PIPs. 3-2 to the Indians who rolled low. Shooting pushed some LH back combat indecisive. Skythians looking for 2 kills rolled a 2 and managed to hard flank a LCh and bow. Arrrgh the Indian Bow 6-1ed thw Skythians and the game ended 4-2 to the Indians.
So what did I learn? This game was fun - for both sides. It was far more balanced both sides felt as if they could have won and the game hung in the balance. Both sides were making regular risk / reward decisions. Both sides felt that they weren't getting enough PIPs. To the Indians it did feel like Wack-a-mole. The Skythians could Manoeuvre fast enough for most of the time get out of Bow arcs unless they wanted to draw fire. The Indians still held an advantage but it was no longer completely dominant. In short the +1/3LH on table turned the pervious dull and pointless game into something more vibrant.
Now the contentious part - for me "free subsequent move" fell at the first hurdle as it didn't allow for simultaneous flanking in the early stage or multiple moves into contact on the other...but more playtesting neede.
Next up same armies with Indians defending in Tropical....and I am not looking forward to the RAW game!
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Post by vodnik on Sept 27, 2019 17:11:33 GMT
...not so important for DBA but in reality: ...bowmen & javelinthrowers:
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 27, 2019 17:38:31 GMT
Same Armies but Indians defending. Woods in quadrants 1, 2 and 3 pushed the enclosure to the table edge. Finally a road restricted the Skythians to come deploy between woods which would otherwise have been too much of an advantage to the Indian 3Bw. This made the Indians deploy with a wood to their front left, enclosures to their rear but with an open right flank. Indians again deployed on a 7BW front: Bw, Bw, El, LCh, LCh, Bw, Bw with a group of LCh and HCh poised to cover the open right flank. Skythians deployed in 2 groups of 6 both targeted at the open flank.
Indian PIPs - 3 they extended their right flank with HCh, LCh, LCh. Skythian PIPs - 1. Left group swung round the wood. Indian PIPs - 5. Bow into wood on the left to dominate that half of the table. Remaining bow and LCh shuffle right. Skythian PIPs - 1. Advance the LH on the left keeping outside 3 to avoid getting hard flanked. Indian PIPs - 6. LCh complete the line, Bow move right, Hd move up and burn. Skythian now facing a line of Bow and mounted. Skythian PIPs - 4 form a line of mounted in front of the wood and just out of Bow range. Indian PIPs - 2 whole line (including Jumbo) advances 1BW. Shooting recoils a LH. Skythian PIPs - 6. Now or never! 3 Supported LH hit the LCh, Gen stands off! other LH move to support. Shooting kills two LH. Combat - pushes 2 sets of LH and a LCh. Indian PIPs - 2. Complete the line and bow move forward. Shooting pushes a LH. Combat kills a LH. Skythian PIPs - 4 back into combat. Shooting kills a LH. Skythians push 2 LCh and the General but with Cav so no QK. Game over 4-0 Dull! Didn't enjoy it.
Replay. Same armies, terrain and tactics. Indian PIPs - 2. Not enough extended their line with HCh and LCh. Skythian PIPs - 3=6. 2 groups converge on the Indian right. A group of 8, 2 deep 1 BW away and the Generals group holding outside Bow range. Shooting - no effect. Indian PIPs - 1 LCh moves up to stop the hard flank but can't line up. Skythian PIPs-3 =6 and they go in. No shooting - in combat. Skythians push the LCh next to the Gen, the Gen but no QK as the Skythians are pushed - Gen impetuously advances, the Skythian General then rides down some Indian bow, while on the Indian right a LH dies, remainder push. Indian PIPs - 5, Lines reform and bow on left advances but only 1 can fire. Shooting pushes a LH. Combat pushes a LH and then the Indian General overlapped and fighting Supported LH rolls 2-6 and gets QKed. 3-1 to Skythians. Skythian PIPs 4=7. Skythians stream into combat rather than getting shot at. No shooting - all Skythians in combat. Combat LCh dies - hard flanked, LCh dies 1-5, LH dies against bow, LCh dies hard flanked, LH dies doubled vs LCh. That's it 5G - 3 to the Skythians.
That game was awesome! It was fast, swung both ways, close, if the Indians had got their bows up just a little faster it may have swung things. The speed of the LH advance forced the Indian Gen into line and caused his eventual death. Not sure I could have done much better with the Skythians but with hind sight the Indians could have played better by putting more Bow in their front line.
What did I learn? The optional rule for additional PIPs works well. It gives a faster and more balanced game and allows a far more aggressive use of LH. You don't need to allow LH to flee if doubled in shooting if they have enough PIPs to reach the "safety" of combat. This is the first game the LH army has won - so they are not unfairly advantaged. This game used the +1/3LH on table rule - with fewer PIPs than that the Skythians would probably have lost.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 27, 2019 17:49:27 GMT
Craig,
Good playtests. Shame you didn't play the additional PIPs - I'd have liked the comparison plus I don't have Huns or Pats in my figure boxes.
I agree that giving LH a boost makes for a better game and let's you see LH in a different light but that under RAW they remain dogs.
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Post by sicadi on Sept 27, 2019 18:15:25 GMT
Apologies Paddy. I just like the keep it simple approach and this did it for me
And yes despite being more engaged myself agree they are still dogs!
The -1 to the opponent instead of a +1 in combat is quite subtle but may have some mileage
Onto some matched pairs practice for Bakewell where both armies will have exactly the same number of LH - 0! 🙁. But I chose and painted them earlier this year and would happily take Attila and Pat Roms as it gives an enjoyable and balanced game even RAW
Craig
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Post by greedo on Sept 27, 2019 18:54:26 GMT
I’d go with the extra pips option if only to answer this question:
Would you rather have the ability to move 1 LH element all over the table or would you rather be able to move 2 LH elements in a coordinated fashion (assuming you rolled a 1 for pips)?
If the goal is to better represent LH as a swarm of flies, then better to have more pips. They already have subsequent moves, and a high move rate so can leverage the higher pipe rate.
Also it minimizes the rule changes, and unforeseen consequences. Having a couple more pips merely means that you’ve tipped luck more in favor the LH instead of extending their move outright. Since LH are pip hungry; a penalty, this is offset by giving them more pips; a positive.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 27, 2019 20:34:53 GMT
What I'll say Sicadi is that Pat Romans vs Huns is a game I've never played and a period of history I'm not interested in. However, I've got Proxies for Attila (8 LH, 2 Wb, Kn & Ps) and Pats (3 Kn, 3 Bd, 2 Ax, 2 LH & 2 Ps) plus you've given me just enough info to play a RAW and +1/3LH version of your playtests. So I'll give it a go!
Surely matched pairs is a game where you can use armies with lots of LH. Nobody ever uses them so they don't know how to - that gives you the advantage!
Otherwise I'm just enjoying playing DBA with LH armies in a way that breaks from the rather dreary "its all about Blade and Bow" competition style. I'm just trying to find the best house rules that boost LH heavy armies in a reasonable way without overdoing it. So far +1/3LH on table comes closest for me.
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Post by stevie on Sept 27, 2019 21:17:51 GMT
The Indians discovered that they couldn't deploy LCh into the hatched area restricting their deployment frontage to 7 BW. I don't know if that is in the rules - it says Cav can deploy there not LCh....there may be a FAQ I'm not aware of. I think Paddy that the DBA convention is that LCh act in all situations as Cv (see page 3 paragraph 6). Otherwise the “Combat Outcomes” on page 11 has no outcomes for LCh! And I take Greedo’s point, although with the ‘free subsequent move’ method, if the LH army rolls 1 PIP they are not moving “1 LH element all over the table”...they are in fact moving 1 LH group all over the table. (And I notice that in one of Paddy's 'free subsequent move' playtests, the Scythians rolled a 1 for PIPs
twice in a row at the start of the battle...well, with rolls like that, what other result would we expect!
And he didn't try to use LH as LH...they just lined-up and charged frontally, as if they were Cv) Still, if Paddy’s playtesting shows that ‘ +1 extra LH PIP for every 3 x LH currently on the table’, which can only be used by LH elements, has the better effect (and it is fairly simple), then let’s adopt it. However, I do believe the following House Rules also help to enhance LH...although they are optional:- * Table size is chosen by invaders: fanaticus.boards.net/post/12175/ * LH flee if doubled by Bows: fanaticus.boards.net/post/10302/ |
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Post by stevie on Sept 27, 2019 22:08:16 GMT
I just want to reiterate something I posted earlier:- With ‘free subsequent moves’, you could spend a PIP to move a column of LH, then use the ‘free subsequent move’ to move each LH element individually to brake-up the column and form them into a line. So for 1 PIP a LH group of 4 elements has enveloped and is sitting over 3 BW from the enemy flank. To protect their flank the enemy will need to spend 1 PIP to turn the end element, and then spend another 2 PIPs to move two nearby elements to link-up with first element in order to prevent the first element from being overlapped and hard-flanked. LH spends 1 PIP...but the enemy needs to spend 3 PIPs... ...and will probably have 3 elements facing 4, so will be overlapped and may even be hard-flanked. What I am saying is don’t use LH like Cv and make frontal charges. That is just what the opposition wants, where they have the combat advantage. Use the LH mobility to threaten the enemy’s weak spots, and charge when YOU have the advantage. Not got an advantage where you are?...fine, move to somewhere else. If the enemy has to spend 3 or more PIPs each time the LH spends 1 PIP, guess who has the advantage.  |
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 27, 2019 23:40:57 GMT
Stevie, you may well be right about LCh deploying in the hatched area. It is worrying that it is so easy to find such exceptions if that is the case but hummmm! I'll post and ask. It made for a better game regardless!
For me the issue with free subsequent moves isn't the 1 on PIPs, although that doesn't help, but more the lack of umph in the Tetris phase.
Table size is a good one - I haven't tested that yet as My boards are all competition size.
Flee from bows if doubled is an interesting one. I get it but doing this makes LH like teflon - nothing sticks! So the choice is do you neuter bows vs LH - which I understand, or do you give LH the PIPs to avoid bows, OR (and this is aligned to Bd counting as 4 for shooting) say that LH counts as 3 for shooting? With lots of PIPs avoiding Bows is achievable and becomes part of the game, without the PIPs you are toast! That is a hard one....LH wouldn't need so many PIPs if they did flee on double.
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Post by snowcat on Sept 28, 2019 1:35:48 GMT
IF the free subsequent move for LH is GENUINELY not strong enough (really?), then tweak it so that the LH subsequent move may end in contact. Try that. (If that's still not strong enough, you're having a laugh.) I wasn't surprised to read that it 'fell at the first hurdle', as I was expecting this from a particular quarter. Equally, I suspect that the more folks persist with it, they might find it runs on pretty good legs.
Other rules may need to be combined with it, such as LH flee from Bw results, etc. Sicadi has put forward some interesting ideas for LH in CC which will need time to consider.
(Another little idea: LH may ignore rolls of 1 for movement. So a 1 result becomes a 2. Throw that into the mix if it helps.) |
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Post by greedo on Sept 28, 2019 2:46:29 GMT
I’d be careful about increasing LH’s combat capability. The obvious one is to give them a cv of 3, but then people would start using them as Cv and we want to avoid that I think. Adding 1 on a loss is an idea I like to use to represent “superior” units as it makes them less likely to be doubled or to recoil. Spartans, Spanish Slingers, Numidian LH perhaps.. but that’s all I would do there. That’s a whole other thread  Interesting to hear the test results of +1 pip / 3 LH. Paddy, did you find any difference between that and the +1 / 4 LH? Any preference? Obviously I’d prefer the /3, but there’s other armies to consider... Also, was the prevailing idea to have the extra pips applicable only to LH groups or to the army generally? |
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