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Post by j on Jul 10, 2019 22:39:51 GMT
The Army list options have been giving me pause for thought (understatement)
I think I have it sorted in my head but wanted to check
“or” means you can mix them
“ / “ means it’s all one type or the other, no mixing
so, with my II/7 Persians, option listed as 3 x kardakes (4Ax) or takabara (3Ax) or mercenary hoplites (forget about the Saka LH)
I can have any mix of the aforementioned - one of each, 3 x 4Ax, 2 x 3Ax & 1 x Sp, right?
BUT
with my II/39a Iberians, option listed as 6 x scutarii (3/4Ax) means I must choose either ALL 3Ax or ALL 4Ax, right?
Regards,
j
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Post by j on Jul 10, 2019 22:59:46 GMT
& also:
II/8a Bruttians' 9 x warriors (3 Ax or 4Ax) can be any mix of the two types?
& a little more complicated:
II/11 Gauls have 3 subsets
1. The General can be either 3Wb or 4Wb?
2. the 2 x Cv can be replaced by either ALL 3Wb or ALL 4Wb?
3. the bulk of 6 x warriors can be either ALL 3Wb or ALL 4Wb?
I've either got the hang of this or I'm doing something very wrong. Which is it?
Regards,
j
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Post by bluestone28 on Jul 11, 2019 6:44:11 GMT
hi! yes i think you all right!  there is some more tricky army list when you have [ ] things... like II/16b for example where you have to choose entirely what it is inside one of the [ ] or the other [ ] in this example you must choose the 2*Sp or [1*Cv + 1*El] without mixing Sp and Cv, El... or the IV/14a also... [2*3Kn+3*LH] or [1*3/4Bd+1*4Bd+2*Cb+(1*7Hd or Art)]  |
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Post by paddy649 on Jul 11, 2019 9:14:28 GMT
Hang on a minute - just what does “or” mean.
This discussion leads to the conclusion that in the Army lists ”or” means “any combination of the options” (i.e. 4 x 3Bw or Ps” means any combination of 3Bw and Ps up to a maximum of 4 is allowed.). In contrast “/“ is the “exclusive or” so 4 x 3Bw/Ps means one or the other not both (i.e. either 4 x 3Bw or 4 xPs NOT both)
If so then does this definition apply to Allies? Does the phrase “Allies: A or B” get interpreted as “any combination of A or B as Allies.” If so that would allow 2 elements of A and 2 elements of B to be fielded. Otherwise you could interpret “or” as the exclusive “or” meaning one or the other not both” in which case you could field 3 elements of A or 3 elements of B but not both.
Which one is it? If the former then what does “and” mean and if the latter then why isn’t it written “A/B” and why do we define the same term differently in different sections of the same Army list?
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Post by davidjconstable on Jul 11, 2019 9:30:45 GMT
The word "or" means alternative, so you can have chips or mash, but not chips and mash.
Words tend to alter their meaning, but I think in this case you are safe,
If American check a good American dictionary, then check an English-English dictionary if any doubts occur.
Army lists can be a pain, and you need to read them very carefully.
David Constable
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Post by stevie on Jul 11, 2019 10:46:27 GMT
I see what you are saying Paddy, but I think the notation system is fairly clear. II/49 Marian Romans....Allies: (II/23a and/or II/51)...means either none, or II/23a, or II/51, or both if you wish. II/47c Marcomanni.......Allies: 0-2 of II/47d or II/47f or II/47g...means no allies, or one of them, or two of them. I/34b Later Hebrews.....Allies: I/31b and/or I/35b and/or I/34b...also means none, one of them, or two of them. I don’t think there is any army that must have compulsory allies, but if it did it would look like this:- I/65 Screaming Hillbillies...Allies: 1-2 of II/85 and/or II/86...meaning they must at least one ally, and could have both. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by goragrad on Jul 11, 2019 10:49:42 GMT
Actually paddy649, in the Army List section on page 9 under Troop Definitions and terminology it specifically states that 'or' between 2 codes or prefix numbers directs that any mixture of those elements can be used.
So j is correct in his reading of the lists.
On the other hand, when it comes to allies, the army lists use 'and' and 'and/or' as well as 'or' making 'or' in the context of the lists an exclusive or.
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Post by nangwaya on Jul 11, 2019 12:47:40 GMT
Would love to see that army on a tabletop! |
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 11, 2019 13:25:39 GMT
Stevie meant to write "naked Gauls" but had a momemtary lapse of memory there. He is working too hard, clearly.
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Post by paddy649 on Jul 11, 2019 13:39:32 GMT
Stevie / Goragrad,
I don’t disagree with you - and indeed that’s the way I read it, until I noticed the inconsistency, and that hasn’t changed. However, if this is right then the word “or” has 2 separate and distinct meanings in separate parts of the same army list.....which is utter madness.
Obviously PB strikes again!
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Post by stevie on Jul 11, 2019 14:31:10 GMT
Oh, it’s not that ‘or’ has two distinct meanings... ...it’s just that an allied retinue of 2 or 3 elements is a single item. Perhaps a better analogy would be a subject after my own heart...buying tins of beer.  Sometimes you can buy tins individually (i.e. some lager and some bitter). Sometimes you can only buy them in bulk (i.e. all lager or all bitter). And sometimes they come in boxes or packs, and you’re not allowed to split them. So whereas ‘or’ and ‘/’ refers to individual elements, ‘or’ for allies means either one entire retinue or another entire retinue (i.e. one entire box or the other), not individuals. (I hope all that makes sense...hic!) |
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Post by stevie on Jul 11, 2019 15:31:32 GMT
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Post by nangwaya on Jul 11, 2019 15:37:15 GMT
A logical choice |
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Post by paddy649 on Jul 11, 2019 16:07:39 GMT
No it makes no logical sense at all.
“You can drink pints of beer OR glasses of wine” means you can mix your drinks but “You can drink pints of beer / glasses of wine” means you can’t mix them while “ You can buy a keg of beer OR a case of wine” also means you can’t mix your drinks. Why does how items are packaged change the meaning of the conjunction.
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Post by stevie on Jul 11, 2019 16:38:55 GMT
“You can buy a keg of beer OR a case of wine” Ah, but you can’t buy just a ⅓ of a keg of beer and ⅔ of a case of wine. They’re not on offer like that. They’re sold as entire individual items. Likewise, an allied contingent of 2 or 3 elements is ‘sold’ as an entire individual item. Out of a long list of possible allies, Phil Barker wants players to (usually) choose one of them. What other phrase in the English language can he use other than the word ‘or’? |
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