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Post by j on Jul 8, 2019 13:42:21 GMT
Ok, I had a column of elements on the banks of (what turned out to be) a 5+ river i.e. only crossable by individual elements or a group in column.
The river was <1BW so the front of the column moved the restricted move of 1BW, putting its front edge out of the river.
In the next move, am I able to advance the whole column at max speed (speed of the slowest element in the column) without regard to any other element entering the river?
Regards,
j
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 8, 2019 15:27:59 GMT
Nope. Anymore than you could pull the same trick crossing a sliver of a bad going or rough going feature. You'd have at least part of a one single element in the group having its front edge in the river for part of the move.
I doubt that the act of wading a river by the lead elements of a column also included bridging and/or paving activities.
Remember a groups moves as if entirely of the slowest member. So a group of Ax and Cv move in rough or bad going as if entirely ofCv, and thus at a much reduced speed.
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Post by Simon on Jul 8, 2019 16:57:29 GMT
Page 9 tactical move distances - for river " 1BW If the front edge of any single element or group is in a non-paltry river for part of the move"
I read that as once the front edge of the element or group is out of the river, they move normally.
Simon
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Post by martin on Jul 8, 2019 17:06:40 GMT
Page 9 tactical move distances - for river " 1BW If the front edge of any single element or group is in a non-paltry river for part of the move" I read that as once the front edge of the element or group is out of the river, they move normally. Simon Agreed. With a single element wide column, once the front edge of the lead element is out of the water it’s “full ssteammm ahhhheadddd” |
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Post by j on Jul 8, 2019 17:15:09 GMT
Primuspilus, that's the logic at work & what prompted my question because, as Simon said... (& others) the rule seems to say they CAN move ahead (at the slowest element speed in the column.
I can see it both ways. Just looking for an "official" consensus.
Regards,
j
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Post by nangwaya on Jul 8, 2019 21:26:19 GMT
I am with Primuspilus on this one.
As from what I get from the rules, is that as long as any element in the group that has their front edge in the river and that element has reduced movement because of being in the river, then the whole group has reduced movement.
Being in column and having the lead element out of the river should not mean that the rest of the group is now unaffected by the river.
It would be the same as having say a group in line that is not completely parallel to a 3-4 river when crossing. Some of that group will be out of the river before the rest, but that does not mean the rest of that group gets to now move at full movement.
The only way to not have reduced movement, as far as I am concerned, is to only have elements in column that will not have their movement reduced by crossing the river.
Either that or accept the fact that the group will have to be broken up if you want at least some of it to zip across the river.
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 8, 2019 21:59:35 GMT
A group moves at the speed of the SLOWEST element ...
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Post by martin on Jul 8, 2019 23:16:10 GMT
A group moves at the speed of the SLOWEST element ... Yes indeed, and the slowest element is the leading element of the column which is slowed while its front edge is in the water. Once the leading element’s front edge is no longer in the water, the lead element moves at full speed ...and so does the rest of the column. |
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 9, 2019 2:08:08 GMT
A column is just a group of elements, no? An element with a front edge in the river moves at 1BW, no?
A column does not magically morph into a "multi-based element" surely.
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 9, 2019 2:16:12 GMT
Also realise group moves across a non-paltry river ARE possible when not in a column.
So feel free to play rivers as you feel makes most sense to you. As for me mine, we shall play what makes historical, tactical, and geologocal sense, and is most aligned with the other concepts (like group moves across bad/rough going) already used in the book.
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Post by bob on Jul 9, 2019 3:18:45 GMT
Here are the rules:
"It moves as if entirely of the slowest type included. "
"1 BW If the front edge of any single element or group is in a non-paltry river for part of the move."
The river move rule has no meaning if it does not mean that the group is only forced to move 1BW only as long as the front edge of the element or group is in the river. If the rules would have the column move 1BW as long as any part of the column is in the river, that is what the rule would say.
1 BW As long as any part of an element or group is in a non-paltry river for part of the move."
The front edge aspect is clearly a specific exception to the slowest element move rule. The movement penalty only applies as long as the front edge is in the river. It seems to me that Phil did not want a multiple element column moving only 1BW until the last element exits. In the original rules, the penalty lasted only until the first element exited the river. Later versions make this more explicit by referring to the front edge.
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 9, 2019 3:41:45 GMT
Sorry Bob, so you are saying that the front element basically builds a footbridge and covers it with mortar so that there is basically now a ford/bridge?
How many here have ever seen a military column wading a river? Ever waded one in battlekit yourselves?
I must tell you guys, wading a non-paltry river under battlefield conditions is about the WORST thing you can be asked to do - and I mean even today in light recce gear, in summer, with your "R" tackies on!!!!
We all hated it WAY more than ANY firefight (simulated or otherwise) we were ever part of. Sucks big time.
You are wet (wet feet means death in the infantry, as you could well imagine) cold (yes, even in 30 degree C heat with a very slight breeze). Anything made of linen or leather is now TWICE the weight. And even though the lead companies have gone before you, and have had the courtesy to point and mark the way, you are JUST as slow to pick your way across as they were.
And wet and waterlogged sandals are 10 times worse than boots for moving cross country.
As I stated before, I have always interpreted the front edge of a single element or group to mean that as long as any single element still had a front edge in the river, it was 1BW.
The "front edge of the column" bit seems to me so that the rearward elements don't inadvertently exceed 1BW (possible on curved trajectories) themselves due to the front edge of the group possibly reaching up to the river. It forces a pause to assess the river.
Then the poor buggers start wading.
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Post by Simon on Jul 9, 2019 6:13:10 GMT
Sorry Bob, so you are saying that the front element basically builds a footbridge and covers it with mortar so that there is basically now a ford/bridge? How many here have ever seen a military column wading a river? Ever waded one in battlekit yourselves? I must tell you guys, wading a non-paltry river under battlefield conditions is about the WORST thing you can be asked to do - and I mean even today in light recce gear, in summer, with your "R" tackies on!!!! We all hated it WAY more than ANY firefight (simulated or otherwise) we were ever part of. Sucks big time. You are wet (wet feet means death in the infantry, as you could well imagine) cold (yes, even in 30 degree C heat with a very slight breeze). Anything made of linen or leather is now TWICE the weight. And even though the lead companies have gone before you, and have had the courtesy to point and mark the way, you are JUST as slow to pick your way across as they were. And wet and waterlogged sandals are 10 times worse than boots for moving cross country. As I stated before, I have always interpreted the front edge of a single element or group to mean that as long as any single element still had a front edge in the river, it was 1BW. The "front edge of the column" bit seems to me so that the rearward elements don't inadvertently exceed 1BW (possible on curved trajectories) themselves due to the front edge of the group possibly reaching up to the river. It forces a pause to assess the river. Then the poor buggers start wading. The question is not about whether the rules accurately represent crossing a river but rather about what they actually say as written. As far as the latter is concerned, I stand by what I said earlier and as agreed by Martin and Bob. Simon |
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Post by nangwaya on Jul 9, 2019 13:04:35 GMT
Here are the rules: "It moves as if entirely of the slowest type included. " "1 BW If the front edge of any single element or group is in a non-paltry river for part of the move." The river move rule has no meaning if it does not mean that the group is only forced to move 1BW only as long as the front edge of the element or group is in the river. If the rules would have the column move 1BW as long as any part of the column is in the river, that is what the rule would say. 1 BW As long as any part of an element or group is in a non-paltry river for part of the move." The front edge aspect is clearly a specific exception to the slowest element move rule. The movement penalty only applies as long as the front edge is in the river. It seems to me that Phil did not want a multiple element column moving only 1BW until the last element exits. In the original rules, the penalty lasted only until the first element exited the river. Later versions make this more explicit by referring to the front edge. Well, you have convinced me bob. |
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Post by j on Jul 9, 2019 18:29:06 GMT
Trouble is, the "rules as written" often become the "rules as understood by what is written" & understanding can be personal and subject to change. I didn't like the idea that, once the leading edge of the leading element in a column was out of the river it was no longer subject to a reduced move but I thought that was what it said. However, I've been thinking about the rule "1 BW If the front edge of any single element or group is in a non-paltry river for part of the move." I'd originally seen it as binary, denotng either 1) a single element - all by itself, not part of a group - or 2) a group - treated as a single entity However, the use of the word ANY when referring to an element could be seen as saying that, if ANY element in the group has a front edge in a non-paltry river then, if it stays together, the group has a move of only 1 BW This will mean any part of the column that has already gotten over the river, it can split off & move seperately, but if the group wants to stay together, it must accept the reduced move until the last element in the column has moved its front edge beyond the river. I can live with that  Regards, j |
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