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Post by martin on Jul 7, 2019 8:48:32 GMT
I think the theory is that plundering troops are too preoccupied to consider manning the walls. Makes them easier to disperse.
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Post by goragrad on Jul 7, 2019 9:38:09 GMT
Of course it was not unknown, martin, for 'relieving' troops to plunder what ever the original attackers didn't.
Still I would not expect a relief force to be as distracted as a conqueror.
Perhaps let them finish winkling out the former conquerors on a 3 or better if instituting a penalty.
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Post by stevie on Jul 7, 2019 10:42:15 GMT
How about making the loss of a defender’s City a permanent loss to the defender, even if recaptured. After all, losing a City is the equivalent to losing an element, presumably because of the blow to the defender’s morale, and some of the soldiers may even have family or relatives inside. Well, recapturing a plundered City, filled with corpses, isn’t going to raise morale by much is it. The defenders can do that after they have won the battle. Not allowing it to be captured and sacked in the first place should be the defender’s main objective. The Tribal Elders/Senate/Emperor/King will not be pleased with a general who allows their cities to be plundered... ...at the very least he will lose face and be replaced by someone more competent... ...and may even be executed for treason!...or be assassinated and cause a regime change. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 7, 2019 13:53:08 GMT
Because places like Jerusalem.
It is a mistake to bolt modern beliefs and sensibilities onto the actions of ancients, especially when it comes to the seizing of wealth and territory. Most reasonable-sized towns contained a temple, a clergy of sorts, and religious objects and artifacts. Not to mention that in those days, a town's wealth was typically not squirreled away in a Swiss bank account, but was held in local vaults.
I see zero issue with interpreting the rule to say if you've just taken/retaken a town under arms, you are too busy to do anything except street fighting, until your side rolls a 5 or 6 for PIPs. Pretty sure that is what PB intended. Now if you really want to fight ovwr the town, you get to do just that. Hey, siege rules without siege rules! I like it!
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 7, 2019 13:56:59 GMT
It would require no changes to the text, and merely a line item clarification in the FAQ.
Personally, the new BUA rules are one of my favourite parts of the game, adding a brilliant layer of atmosphere and strategy to the game.
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Post by stevie on Jul 8, 2019 9:21:07 GMT
And I agree with you entirely Primuspilus.  DBA ‘sacking’ is another one of those “ oh, wouldn’t it be a good idea if” rules, that has not been fully thought-through or playtested properly... ...as it doesn’t say if sacking troops generate a Threat Zone or not (they shouldn’t, as they’re busy pillaging), ...and it doesn’t say if it affects defenders re-taking a captured city (it should, to simulate prolonged street fighting). From now on I’m gonna apply both of the above, unless my invading opponent wants me to use my city as a trap. As for whether the loss of a city should be merely a temporary or a permanent penalty to the defender, “Winning and Losing” on page 12 clearly says re-capturing a ruined, plundered city full of dead civilians Is just as good as not letting the city be captured and sacked in the first place (and the defender’s troops feel no shame at all about their failure to protect all those helpless citizens of theirs). Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by martin on Jul 8, 2019 11:23:21 GMT
I don’t have the rules with me, so apologies if this is incorrect or misinforms -
As far as I remember, and only with a vague recollection of the Treat Zones paragraph, a TZ is only generated by a garrisoned city or one with denizens intact, but not one being sacked. Anyone confirm/deny/ provide a reference?
Martin
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Post by stevie on Jul 8, 2019 11:51:45 GMT
Ah Martin...if it’s questions about the rules, then I’m your man!  “Threat Zone”, page 9 paragraph 8 says:- “The area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon or the front-edge of any other type of element, or the area within 1 BW of any point of a camp, city or garrisoned fort is its Threat Zone (TZ).” (figure 7d and figure 18 merely say the same)Soooo...what happens when camp followers leave their camp undefended, or the invader is busy sacking? Sacking troops can’t shoot or be shot at, can’t use the city defence bonus, and can’t move...cos they’re busy. So who is manning the city walls or the camp defences to generate this Threat Zone? |
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Post by goragrad on Jul 8, 2019 12:22:28 GMT
As the design notes state that each bound represents about 15 minutes, I think that a city recaptured on the next bound or within a couple of bounds would not have suffered that greatly. The attackers troops would have just been getting warmed up when counter attacked.
As I recall, when the Romans were making an example of a captured city the commander decided how many days he would have his men spend killing every living thing they came across. Searching out and butchering civilians (particularly when the troops are probably indulging in a bit of rape and looking for valuables) takes time.
They would probably also still be engaged in some moping up.
Historically I seem to remember reading of several instances in which cities were used as traps for an invader in the manner being discussed here. I don't recall that the commanders of the defending armies involved suffered that mush opprobrium.
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 8, 2019 15:19:15 GMT
I take the "15 minutes" with a LARGE handful of salt. Same with the "nominal troop counts". Personally, I prefer the CC:A approach - time scale is how long it takes for these things to occur. Troops can represent anything from a raiding band to Xerxes' full army!
Use your imagination accordingly.
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