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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 17, 2019 14:47:07 GMT
Ok... I was unable to meaningfully post Stevie's Post from the Base Depth Thread...
So, here is the threat zone issue.
The current text... (Please check this closely... My electronic copy is from June 2, 2014. This was one month or so before publishing and I think the last electronic play test copy distributed (well, there is one later that was abandoned). The text of the rule changed considerably on publishing. I manually edited the text from my June copy.
"
THREAT ZONE
The area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon or the front edge of any other type of element, or the area within 1 BW of
any point of a camp, city or garrisoned fort is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group which is at least partly within or whose front edge enters an enemy
TZ or touches its far edge can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ or (b) to advance
into or towards contact with such an enemy generating the TZ or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for
the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves."
Further text that impacts the above... From Ground Scale and Measuring “Within” means “at or closer than”.
Helpful Diagrams: 7A,B,C,D, and E Important note. Some believe the diagrams are not part of the rules and mostly in error. I will try to avoid completely relying on them.
The first sentence defines a threat zone. I don't see any ambiguity with the definition. We have a nice diagram demonstrating a War Wagon's TZ and that of a Camp/City/(Garrisoned Fort).
The second sentence has several problems. The first is the use of "within". The word "within" is defined by Phil to mean "at or closer than". This means touching or closer. This is from an old issue that Phil had with earlier rules where people argued about boundaries. The argument went something like this-"If I had a range of 2 inches and my enemy is exactly 2 inches away, is he in range?" Phil decided to hard define the word "within" and use it in his rules. An element "at" exactly two inches away was within range.
The use of "partly within" in this case causes an issue. In previous versions of DBX elements were not hindered by an enemy TZ if they were touching the side or front corners. In this case however, if we use the definition of within... elements at the corner or touching the side of an enemy threat zone are "at" 1 BW and therefore "within" the Threat Zone. Further, no the Threat Zones are not blocked as in earlier versions. (This issue also exists in the HoTT.)
Fortunately, we have a diagram that helps. 7c shows an overlapping element and implies that is is not in the Threat Zone of the element it overlaps. Corners don't seem to count. This however is not helpful for those that believe the diagrams are not part of the rules and are in error.
Compounding the above is the next part of the sentence... "or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge can move only:"
What does this mean? If you are "within" a Threat Zone, then you are in it! Why do we need this? Why the part about the front edge? Is Phil just being redundant?
Further, how do these clauses interact? Like this? An element or group (which is at least partly within) or (whose front edge enters an enemy TZ) or (touches its far edge can move only): or Like this?
An element or group (which is at least partly within) or whose front edge (enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge can move only):
It is a mess.
More later:
Joe Collins
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Post by stevie on Apr 17, 2019 15:27:53 GMT
I don’t know if this helps Joe, but here for everybody to see is that diagram you mentioned from page 28 of HoTT:- ↓ Element-X2 - - - - - - - : : ↓ ↓ : Element-X3 Element-X1 : : : : ↑ : Element-A Crossing an Enemy Element’s Front 1
The dotted line shows the 1 element width square
area in front of A inside which enemy tactical
moves are restricted.
An enemy element’s tactical move is also restricted
if any part of its base is in contact with the far side
of the square (from A), but not if only in contact
with the corners or other sides of the square.
Thus an enemy’s tactical move would be restricted
if it was in position X1 or X2, but not if in position
X3 (unless its move entered the square).
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And I can see what both you and Bob are saying. Yes, page 2 paragraph 10, last sentence under “Ground Scale” says:- “Within” means “at or closer than”. But page 9, paragraph 8 “Threat Zones” should use the word “inside” and not “within”, like this:- “...at least partly within inside or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge can move only...” And here is the diagram I posted from the "Base Depth" thread:- ┌─────────┐
│ λ │
└─────────┘
┌────┐┌─────────┐┌─────────┐ │ ││ 1 ││ 2 │ │ ᴟ │└─────────┘└─────────┘ │ │ ⁞ └────┘ . . . . . . . . . . . ⁞ Here Blue-M is attacking the flank of Red-1, which cannot
turn-to-face as it is already in frontal contact with Blue-Y.Red-2 is NOT in the TZ of Blue-M because page 9 “Threat Zones” says:- “An element or group which is at least partly within inside or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge can move only (a, b, c).” The left flank of Red-2 is not ‘ within’ ' inside' the Blue-M TZ (it’s only touching it). And the front-edge of Red-2 is not ' inside' or ‘touching’ a TZ far edge. Therefore, Red-2 CAN hard-flank and close the door on Blue-Y. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 17, 2019 15:46:26 GMT
Yes, thanks...
Also,I can't copy your HTML junk over from the last post on the other thread... it lost most of your formatting.
A repost of that would help as well.
Joe Collins |
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Post by Simon on Apr 17, 2019 15:52:43 GMT
I can't find the Hermeneutics in the army lists. Sound like a successor kingdom to me!
Simon
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Post by ammianus on Apr 17, 2019 16:12:59 GMT
Has hermeneutics once. Tetracycline knocked it right out.
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 17, 2019 16:22:53 GMT
So, how do we interpret and play the troublesome Threat Zone rule?
"An element or group which is at least partly within or whose front edge enters an enemy
TZ or touches its far edge can move only:"
Using the RAW, means the DBA would have different TZ rules than every other version of DBX. The sides and corners of a threat zone would exert influence over enemy elements. No one plays it this way... not even strict Rules As Written players.
Here is my take... Until the last versions of the rules Phil used the word "in", not "within" for this sentence. I suggested "inside". The final version changed this and when we noticed it had unfortunately already had been set.
Putting inside or in renders...
""An element or group which is at least partly "in/inside" or whose front edge enters an enemy
TZ or touches its far edge can move only:"
This fixes the weirdness with corners and sides of Threat Zones...but it doesn't explain what.
" or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge can move only:" means.
If the front edge of a threat zone is included...then why not just say:"or touches its far edge can move only:"?
Rendering...
"An element or group which is at least partly inside or touches its far edge can move only:"
This seems clear. If you are inside or touching the far edge, then you are hindered by the Threat Zone.
Phil doesn't write this however... What does the part about "front edge" mean?
Joe Collins
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 17, 2019 16:42:57 GMT
Here is my take.
A threat zone is the area 1 BW in front of an element.
If you are "inside" this area, then you are in the threat zone.
If you are touching the area, you are not "inside" and therefore not affected by the TZ with one exception.
That exception is that if your element's front edge touches the far edge of an enemy threat zone, then you are in the Threat Zone.
This means the following...
Elements A and B are exactly one BW apart and facing one another...
A is in B's TZ. B is in A's TZ.
Neither A or B are "inside"... but they both have front edges touching the far edge of the other.
Elements A and B are exactly 1 BW apart. A is facing B. B is facing away.
A is not in B's TZ... B is facing away.
B is not in A's TZ... B is has its rear edge touching... not its front edge. B is not affected by the TZ.
Elements A and B less than 1 BW apart. A is facing B. B is facing away.
A is not in B's TZ... B is facing away.
B is in A's TZ... B is has its rear edge "inside" A's Threat Zone. B is affected by the TZ.
Thus a flanked line only has one element in the flankers's threat zone. The second element in the line has its side edge touching the far edge of the flanker's threat zone. This is not its front edge. It therefore may move away (and close the door in the early stated example).
Now. I will grant that the above doesn't explain...."enters an enemy TZ". These seems redundant. If you "enter" with any part of an element, you are "inside".
Thoughts?
Joe Collins
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Post by primuspilus on Apr 18, 2019 1:29:59 GMT
Now I see why the Western world will never solve cold fusion ....  |
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Post by jeffreythancock on Apr 18, 2019 2:25:54 GMT
Cold fusion is complex, but DBA should not be!! We're not talking about rocket surgery. Now I see why the Western world will never solve cold fusion .... |
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 18, 2019 3:01:48 GMT
Or brain science!
Joe Collins
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Post by stevie on Apr 18, 2019 4:42:19 GMT
Hmmm....just one minor little quibble Joe... ...if you want DBA to be the same as HoTT that is:- Here is my take. Elements A and B are exactly 1 BW apart. A is facing B. B is facing away. A is not in B's TZ... B is facing away. B is not in A's TZ... B is has its rear edge touching... not its front edge. B is not affected by the TZ. From page 28 of HoTT:- ↓
Element-X2
- - - - - - -
: : ↓
↓ : Element-X3
Element-X1 :
: ↑ :
Element-A
Crossing an Enemy Element’s Front 1
The dotted line shows the 1 element width square
area in front of A inside which enemy tactical
moves are restricted.
An enemy element’s tactical move is also restricted
if any part of its base is in contact with the far side
of the square (from A), but not if only in contact
with the corners or other sides of the square.
Thus an enemy’s tactical move would be restricted
if it was in position X1 or X2, but not if in position
X3 (unless its move entered the square).
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Note the part highlighted in red. So if Element-X2 were exactly 1 BW from Element-A, but facing away from it, its rear would still be touching the ‘far edge’ of the TZ, so would still be affected... ...at least according to HoTT. On the other hand, the DBA Threat Zone says (or at least it ' should' say):- "An element or group partly inside a TZ or whose front-edge enters or touches its far edge..." ...so maybe the difference is trivial. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by paulisper on Apr 18, 2019 6:12:58 GMT
Stevie - bang on. The second example should have the element B in TZ of A, regardless of facing.
P
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Post by martin on Apr 18, 2019 10:44:56 GMT
I may have been misreading the rules. I (and many gaming colleagues) have been thinking that a flank or rear edge of element x ‘at’ 1BW precludes that element x from free movement. The ‘front edge’ part escaped me/us. The Hott version, as per stevie and paulisper, was my/our take on it.
Now somewhat baffled....
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Post by stevie on Apr 18, 2019 11:50:59 GMT
I think Martin that the basic guideline for DBA is:- Being inside a TZ restricts movement (obviously), But the far-edge of a TZ only restricts the front-edge of an enemy. It’s as if the front-edge of the TZ generator were being projected forwards, and has a sort of ghostly physical presence 1 BW away, directly to its front, that only interacts with an enemy element's front-edge. (And people complain about quantum physics being hard!  )Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by paulisper on Apr 18, 2019 12:47:58 GMT
I think Martin that the basic guideline for DBA is:- Being inside a TZ restricts movement (obviously), But the far-edge of a TZ only restricts the front-edge of an enemy. It’s as if the front-edge of the TZ generator were being projected forwards, and has a sort of ghostly physical presence 1 BW away, directly to its front, that only interacts with an enemy element's front-edge. (And people complain about quantum physics being hard! )That would be plain nonsense - you’re either in or you’re not, regardless of facing P Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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