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Post by judebecker on Apr 16, 2019 13:29:12 GMT
I've read in DBR that its possible for the Dutch to have inland naval elements. Further reading indicates that fire ships called hellburners and artillery support vessels called crompsters (like sloop class ships) were used up rivers or canals. I think it could be very interesting to see how this would pan out supporting rebel Dutch troops against a Spanish held village or fortress with the DBR system. A nice opportunity for modeling small ships as well. 1:300 might be a good scale if one could find models roughly appropriate.
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Post by Simon on Apr 16, 2019 15:52:45 GMT
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Post by Simon on Apr 16, 2019 15:53:45 GMT
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Post by timurilank on Apr 16, 2019 20:55:20 GMT
If you use the paper ship option, then select the small cutters or gondolaa as these could easily be converted to a ‘tjalk’ which were common. Adding the blades on the hull would complete the picture.
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tjalk
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Post by Simon on Apr 17, 2019 11:03:28 GMT
This threadhas got me interested in a period I know very little about. I have just downloaded the issue 93 of WSS magazine where this was the theme. If people are DBRing this war, what figures are they using?
Simon
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Post by judebecker on Apr 17, 2019 15:50:04 GMT
This threadhas got me interested in a period I know very little about. I have just downloaded the issue 93 of WSS magazine where this was the theme. If people are DBRing this war, what figures are they using? Simon Minifig 15 mixed with Matchlock (using the earlier types of figures). The Khurasan range for this is also brilliant if based on a 1mm piece of ply from Litko to help the size difference get resolved. Then I base the Minifigs on 2mm warbases and still add a small bit of putty under base to help with height.
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Post by judebecker on Apr 17, 2019 21:42:53 GMT
Another comment, DBR gives ranges for distant shooting as 1200 to 1800 paces for artillery, yet a mere 200 to 300 paces for naval. This seems to make little sense. I think naval units could bombard from afar like ordinary artillery around the year 1600?
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Post by Simon on Apr 17, 2019 22:21:30 GMT
Another comment, DBR gives ranges for distant shooting as 1200 to 1800 paces for artillery, yet a mere 200 to 300 paces for naval. This seems to make little sense. I think naval units could bombard from afar like ordinary artillery around the year 1600? An interesting point. I am trying to remember the battles whens off-shore ships joined in during this period and how far offshore they were. Simon
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Post by Simon on Apr 17, 2019 22:22:46 GMT
A point may be what elevation ships' gun carriages of the time could achieve given that they were focussed on short range ship v ship action?
Simon
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Post by judebecker on Apr 18, 2019 3:25:00 GMT
A point may be what elevation ships' gun carriages of the time could achieve given that they were focussed on short range ship v ship action? Simon Yes, but in these cases the ships were in canals or rivers. So, could fire to support land action.
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Post by timurilank on Apr 18, 2019 7:15:40 GMT
This threadhas got me interested in a period I know very little about. I have just downloaded the issue 93 of WSS magazine where this was the theme. If people are DBRing this war, what figures are they using? Simon Simon, The early period of the rebellion would find many mercenary units serving in the Dutch army; Heugenot cavalry, reiters and german mercenary infantry (landsknecten). The morion helmet would be prevelant among the Spanish troops. Khurasan miniatures offer a Late 16th Century line to cover both sides. khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/late16thcentury.html
After Maurice reformed the army, dress differed little from what you would find throughout the rest of the continent, so Thirty Years War figures would work well. Totentanz minutures are good, but I have not done business with them. totentanz-miniatures.com/product-category/guerra-30/
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Post by timurilank on Apr 18, 2019 7:16:27 GMT
A point may be what elevation ships' gun carriages of the time could achieve given that they were focussed on short range ship v ship action? Simon Yes, but in these cases the ships were in canals or rivers. So, could fire to support land action. A few things concerning canal or inland vessels. The beam of these vessels would not be sufficient to accomodate larger caliber gun nor allow for their recoil as they were primarily transport craft and not naval vessels. They were ideally suited for moving small companies of men or supplies, cutting enemy supply lines and useful during siege of bridging operations. Secondly, although Dutch landscape is relatively flat, there would are plenty of forests and causeways to impede long distance shooting.
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Post by Simon on Apr 18, 2019 11:41:21 GMT
This threadhas got me interested in a period I know very little about. I have just downloaded the issue 93 of WSS magazine where this was the theme. If people are DBRing this war, what figures are they using? Simon Simon, The early period of the rebellion would find many mercenary units serving in the Dutch army; Heugenot cavalry, reiters and german mercenary infantry (landsknecten). The morion helmet would be prevelant among the Spanish troops. Khurasan miniatures offer a Late 16th Century line to cover both sides. khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/late16thcentury.html
After Maurice reformed the army, dress differed little from what you would find throughout the rest of the continent, so Thirty Years War figures would work well. Totentanz minutures are good, but I have not done business with them. totentanz-miniatures.com/product-category/guerra-30/
Thanks for this - I have also found out that MY miniatures do some Spanish and Tudor English that could be used for the early period. What period of the Dutch Wars do you think is more imteresting from a wargames perspective in terms of variety of troop types and actions fought? Thanks Simon
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Post by timurilank on Apr 18, 2019 14:18:11 GMT
Thanks for this - I have also found out that MY miniatures do some Spanish and Tudor English that could be used for the early period. What period of the Dutch Wars do you think is more imteresting from a wargames perspective in terms of variety of troop types and actions fought? Thanks Simon
With regard to actions, the first period (1570's – 1600) was not good for the Dutch. Land battles seemed enlarged skirmishes while the majority of the fighting was cantered around the siege of a city/town or its relief. The fighting would involve large numbers of civilians on the side of the Dutch so their forces would have variety among their ranks.
From modern day Belgium, Spanish forces advanced to gain control of the western provinces, yet Zeeland proved a tougher nut to crack as the ‘zee geuzen’ frustrated the Spanish at every turn.
The eastern provinces offered better terrain for cavalry to operate and in addition its also became an entry point for German mercenaries serving both sides.
The scale evened out when Maurice took command and his reforms did help the effectiveness of Dutch forces, but as the war expanded to other parts of Europe (30 years war), the Spanish army declined lacking resources and plagued by mutinies. The resourceful Spanish replaced the Tercio model and adapted smaller units to counter the Dutch.
The latter period would find similarities in dress with ribbons, sashes, flags and the use of explicatives being the only means to tell friend from foe.
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Post by judebecker on Apr 18, 2019 15:57:56 GMT
For me the period from 1600 to 1620 is the best as it offers a chance to show how Maurice changed the army and started to introduce the new systems and a game can still show the Dutch using both systems. At the Siege of Julich in 1610, Maurice decided to form half the army with the new system in small units in a checkerboard, and half the army in the older deeper tercios. The Spanish were all in Tercios. This also allows the later Tudor dress to still appear which is slightly different from what we imagine as typical ECW TYW dress.
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