|
|
Post by Cromwell on Feb 20, 2019 20:45:47 GMT
I am currently painting a Hundred Years War English Army IV/62d. I also have IV/64c French army to paint.
The English army is historically correct in having a very high proportion of Longbows 8 with an option for a further 1 either L/B or Mounted L/B.
The Blades (Men at arms) can be either mounted or dismounted.
I am wondering what tactics would work best against The IV/64c French. I fear my L/Bows are going to be easily ridden down. And the there doesn't seem to be enough English men at arms to bolster them effectively. Also the L/Bows do not have the protection of stakes in DBA as their historical counterparts did.
Any suggestions?
|
|
|
|
Post by lkmjbc on Feb 20, 2019 21:27:39 GMT
Men-at-Arms need to be on 20mm/30mm deep bases.
Keep the bowmen in groups of 3.
Remember that Bows can recoil through the Men-at-Arms.
Maximize the number of Blades.
An effective formation
BBB BBB BBB MMM BBB BBB BBB
MMM MMM
Play a bunch of test games to learn use of the mounted bowmen. They are great, but tricky to learn.
Finally, play-test my rule suggestion...
Change the “(a)” section under “Player Initiative Point Dicing” to be…
Except in the side’s first bound, a move that uses a PIP uses up an extra PIP for each of the two following cases that apply:
(a) If the moving element or group includes any Scythed Chariots not moving into contact with enemy, Elephants, Hordes, War Wagons, Artillery, denizens or camp followers, or if the element or group includes foot that moves into frontal contact with Bow, or is an element currently garrisoning a city, fort or camp.
The last is optional of course.
Joe Collins
|
|
|
|
Post by Cromwell on Feb 21, 2019 8:34:12 GMT
Thanks Joe that's great! Just what i was looking for.
As soon as the paint has dried i will try it out.
I had completely forgotten that Bows and recoil through Blades!
|
|
|
|
Post by medievalthomas on Feb 22, 2019 18:32:23 GMT
I've used the Hundred Year War English in many a tournament and may be the all time leader in its use (its one of the few 15mm armies I have so it gets reused a lot).
If you want to get an historical game you must use Shooters out of HOTT for the Longbowmen. This works great and will give an excellent historical battle. Late medieval heavy crossbows behind pavises should likewise be upgraded to Shooters but shoot only in their own bound. Finally for post 1420 games (such as Vernuiel) you need to introduce plate armored horses which are treated as Foot for shooting.
For tournaments with the standard rules get ready to grow a thick hide. Best bet is to mix Blades into your battle line: basically Bow;Bow;Blade;Bow;Bow;Blade;Bow;Bow etc. I'm not fond of putting Blade behind Bow as it shortens your line and the front Bow tends to get whacked and never gets the chance to Recoil through the Blade. Side Support is vital as you can see above. Keep a Knight/Gen stand behind the line to plug holes as they will develop. Also take the Artillery option instead of Mounted Bows to deal with El. Because of high Aggression you'll invade a lot so don't count on Terrain (to get better historical results - reverse the muddy Fields rule - they stay muddy until one side rolls a "6" for PIPs).
Stakes are a part of 3.0 - they give you Cry Havoc v. Knights. The English used Stakes only late in the period and won their greatest victory against Knights (Crecy) without them. Almost all games greatly exaggerate their effect and importance.
If facing the French they will probably dismount and you will face a wall of Blades. Well do your best...bear in mind that the ratio of Longbowmen to Men-at-arms is not correct in the DBA lists (its based on one probably erroneous account of Agincourt). Historically it rarely exceeded 3-1. Likewise the non-mounted Blades are a myth all English Men at arms should be Knight/Blade (actually "Knight Light" but that's a bit more than DBA can handle).
The War of the Roses list is more tournament competitive though historically much inferior to the "elite" Hundred Years War armies.
TomT
|
|
|
|
Post by Cromwell on Feb 23, 2019 17:00:46 GMT
Thanks Medievalthomas. Again just the information i was looking for. I have an all options DBA 3.0 IV/62d English and IV/64c French armies. I will obviously be using DBA 3.0.
I am also going to give them a run with Simon Miller's "To the Strongest!" rules to see how they play out there.
|
|
|
|
Post by braisdefer on Feb 24, 2019 2:20:37 GMT
Historically it seems to be about choosing your ground well and then digging pot holes and ditches etc to maximize the defence of your chosen position. Secure flanks are a given. A classic case for implementing house rules.
The archers in a professional late Hundred Years War English army should be upgraded to heavy mounted infantry and be given a high close combat rating. The ability to mill with the enemy is realistically more important than fantasizing about the effectiveness of the warbow as a missile weapon.
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 24, 2019 12:09:54 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by braisdefer on Feb 24, 2019 19:54:47 GMT
Thanks for that. I haven't been here for a while so I need to do some catching up!
|
|
|
|
Post by goragrad on Feb 27, 2019 6:04:31 GMT
As to giving any higher CV to English longbow, the army notes in Purple note that as time went on that more blades were added to the mix.
One presumes that if the longbowmen were holding their own in close combat that wouldn't have been necessary.
Adding the +1 against heavies in addition to the exiting +1 for side support seems quite adequate.
As to Duplicating English victories it would be more a matter of terrain and scenario specific rules. For example, a mandate that French BD or KN have to attack their counterparts rather than the LB given a choice. A linear feature to disrupt the French or making sure it rains on the plow also would help.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cromwell on Feb 27, 2019 8:11:24 GMT
From what has been said on here, and other reading i have done, the use of stakes to protect the longbowmen was not as prevalent as is sometime supposed. I cannot remember ever reading they were used in the War of the Roses, except perhaps at Northampton, but that seems to have been an earthwork protection rather than stakes.
Anyone have an views on this?
|
|
wote
Munifex
Posts: 22
|
Post by wote on Apr 20, 2021 10:47:08 GMT
If you want to get an historical game you must use Shooters out of HOTT for the Longbowmen. This works great and will give an excellent historical battle. Late medieval heavy crossbows behind pavises should likewise be upgraded to Shooters but shoot only in their own bound. Finally for post 1420 games (such as Vernuiel) you need to introduce plate armored horses which are treated as Foot for shooting. Thanks for your excellent post medievalthomas. Could you elaborate on how HOTT Shooters differ to DBA3 Bows for those of us who don't have HOTT? |
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Apr 20, 2021 15:03:46 GMT
In HoTT ‘Shooters’ (what DBA calls ‘Bows’) have a combat factor of 3 against
foot and 4 against mounted...essentially the same as DBA WWg.
However, HoTT doesn’t have any ‘side-support’ for solid Bows.
You could give DBA Lb and Cb a CF of 3 against foot but keep their side-support...
...remembering side-support only applies in close combat against foot in good going.
|
|
