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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 26, 2016 16:16:41 GMT
Some rule lawyery stuff from the situation Tony presented. Initial line up: Suppose the Aux player did not fully slide into contact with his own element but left a small gap (so his element had recoil room) saying I can't fully line up so LH has to line up. If the LH choose to line up then that would leave a small gap so that the other Aux could Recoil. Can you do this? No. Intent of the rule is that a element must attempt to line up as much as possible before invoking the contacted element must line up or fight overlapped rule. Pursuit: What if the element the Aux contacted was of a type that Pursued? If the Pursuers win do they break Flank Lock and hook round the corner to Pursue? Will probably toss this up to the FAQ committee but as that august body decides slowly and sometimes not at all, for now I'll suggest that elements do not Pursue out of Close Combat so that the Flank Locking element stays put. Player feedback welcome as to how this should be handled. Bear in mind that triads about the incompetence of the Designer/Developers/playtesters and those asserting that Phil's writing style is an affront to civilized discourse while perhaps having great merit do not help solve the problem presented. TomT Tom, I agree agree with you on both your "Initial line up" and "Pursuit" points. That pursuit point I haven't seen happen yet, but I'm only a few hundred games in.  |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 26, 2016 16:21:51 GMT
No. Intent of the rule is that a element must attempt to line up as much as possible before invoking the contacted element must line up or fight overlapped rule. I have always referred to this as "must make best effort" to conform. |
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Post by bob on Aug 26, 2016 17:04:03 GMT
Here is another what if that has been troubling me. What if that element at the upper right joined the element in front contact with the LH. Now LH is contacted by a group, and must conform to the group. The general question is, does the group need to make the initial contact, or once a group forms, does the contacted element conform.
Good point about the moving element not being on the flank of the LH, but that upper right-hand element is, so why not hit the LH flank with that?
Tom, I do not think that it is stated or even hinted at in the rules that an element must contact as much as possible, when after its move it cannot fully contact the enemy . I think this is a proper question for the FAQ group. Most readers will not know the intent of this rule.
I think The pursuit question you raise is answered by the following rule
"If a pursuing element's front edge contacts enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge, they line up immediately as if contact was by a tactical move, but the resulting combat is resolved next bound ."
The pursuing element not only has contacted an enemy, but it is in contact with an enemy, and they are in fact already lined up. There is however a question as to what happens if the pursuing element is blocked by its own side element.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 26, 2016 17:45:33 GMT
Good point about the moving element not being on the flank of the LH, but that upper right-hand element is, so why not hit the LH flank with that? The motivation of certain players can not always be ass-ertained.  |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 26, 2016 17:48:59 GMT
Here is another what if that has been troubling me. What if that element at the upper right joined the element in front contact with the LH. Now LH is contacted by a group, and must conform to the group. The general question is, does the group need to make the initial contact, or once a group forms, does the contacted element conform. I have always understood that it would conform if it made CONTACT as a group. Not to create more confusion, but if you did that move you suggested, AND the LH chose to remain in place and fight as a -1, would it get ANOTHER -1 by having that other Aux in side to side contact with the contacting Aux even though they are not in corner to corner contact? |
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Post by medievalthomas on Aug 29, 2016 16:12:48 GMT
Bob: I agree that neither point if fully covered by the rules and it may help if the FAQ clears this up - I'm just giving a get you by ruling so that players can finish games while the FAQ committee debates.
It seems to be that the -1 for fighting "not lined up" is always over and above any overlaps. I would prefer it just count as one of the overlaps but I think Phil wanted it to be over and above.
TomT
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Post by lkmjbc on Aug 29, 2016 16:54:20 GMT
Here is another what if that has been troubling me. What if that element at the upper right joined the element in front contact with the LH. Now LH is contacted by a group, and must conform to the group. The general question is, does the group need to make the initial contact, or once a group forms, does the contacted element conform. I have always understood that it would conform if it made CONTACT as a group. Not to create more confusion, but if you did that move you suggested, AND the LH chose to remain in place and fight as a -1, would it get ANOTHER -1 by having that other Aux in side to side contact with the contacting Aux even though they are not in corner to corner contact? We may need a new picture here as the situation is getting confusing. Tony... I think that you mean a flank contact. If so, then the LH turns to face... there is no choice in this matter. Though I may be misunderstanding. Joe Collins |
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Post by menacussecundus on Aug 29, 2016 18:23:16 GMT
I have always understood that it would conform if it made CONTACT as a group. Not to create more confusion, but if you did that move you suggested, AND the LH chose to remain in place and fight as a -1, would it get ANOTHER -1 by having that other Aux in side to side contact with the contacting Aux even though they are not in corner to corner contact? We may need a new picture here as the situation is getting confusing. Tony... I think that you mean a flank contact. If so, then the LH turns to face... there is no choice in this matter. Though I may be misunderstanding. Joe Collins That's not what I understood Tony to mean Joe. I thought he was asking what should happen if the first lot of Ax hit the front edge of the LH (as per the second photo) and then a second element of Ax lined up in side edge to side edge contact with the first Ax.
if the LH slides across to align with the first Ax, it will have a -1 because it is overlapped corner to corner by the second Ax element. If it stays put, it also fights at -1, but, if it survives the combat, it will remain in front edge to side edge contact with the enemy element fighting the cataphracts. As it has a -1 penalty either way, it might as well stay where it is.
What I understood Tony was asking was whether the -1 for being overlapped should be deemed to apply to the LH as well as the -1 for failing to conform. Otherwise there is effectively no penalty for not conforming. (And if that wasn't what Tony was asking, can I now throw this into the mix?)
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 29, 2016 20:41:45 GMT
We may need a new picture here as the situation is getting confusing. Tony... I think that you mean a flank contact. If so, then the LH turns to face... there is no choice in this matter. Though I may be misunderstanding. Joe Collins That's not what I understood Tony to mean Joe. I thought he was asking what should happen if the first lot of Ax hit the front edge of the LH (as per the second photo) and then a second element of Ax lined up in side edge to side edge contact with the first Ax.
if the LH slides across to align with the first Ax, it will have a -1 because it is overlapped corner to corner by the second Ax element. If it stays put, it also fights at -1, but, if it survives the combat, it will remain in front edge to side edge contact with the enemy element fighting the cataphracts. As it has a -1 penalty either way, it might as well stay where it is.
What I understood Tony was asking was whether the -1 for being overlapped should be deemed to apply to the LH as well as the -1 for failing to conform. Otherwise there is effectively no penalty for not conforming. (And if that wasn't what Tony was asking, can I now throw this into the mix?)
That is EXACTLY what I was asking. Well put. |
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Post by lkmjbc on Aug 30, 2016 17:05:39 GMT
I'm with you now (I think!). My ruling would be a single -1... the one flank is counted as if overlapped. There is no further penalty. You can't overlap it twice.
So, the best move would be to stay in place overlapping the enemy.
Joe Collins
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 30, 2016 19:35:59 GMT
I'm with you now (I think!). My ruling would be a single -1... the one flank is counted as if overlapped. There is no further penalty. You can't overlap it twice. So, the best move would be to stay in place overlapping the enemy. Joe Collins Gotcha. |
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Post by Cromwell on Aug 30, 2016 20:09:22 GMT
Sometimes the dice just aren't with you! Well, I did win this game (eventually.) I have lost hundreds of games of DBA, which is just a fact when you have played over a THOUSAND.  If this brings you down just remember, the other guy is trying to win also.  What really is depressing is when you lose hundreds and play solo! |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 30, 2016 20:21:40 GMT
Well, I did win this game (eventually.) I have lost hundreds of games of DBA, which is just a fact when you have played over a THOUSAND. If this brings you down just remember, the other guy is trying to win also. What really is depressing is when you lose hundreds and play solo! Just look at all the games you have won! |
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Post by ronisan on Sept 1, 2016 12:07:46 GMT
Here is another what if that has been troubling me. What if that element at the upper right joined the element in front contact with the LH. Now LH is contacted by a group, and must conform to the group. The general question is, does the group need to make the initial contact, or once a group forms, does the contacted element conform. Hi 'bob', the rules say:"Conversely, a group or single element can move to join other elements and make its next move as a group including these." So, the LH is contacted by a single Ax ... the second Ax moves in overlap position ... the two Ax are no group yet (!). In the next bound, they can be formed and moved as a group! Cheers, Ronald. |
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Post by wjhupp on Sept 1, 2016 12:52:27 GMT
Tony, is the following how you think of this as real life?
I presume that the situation got to this point by Non-Green having this attack and the combat was a tie. So in real life it is an extended combat. The Ax wants to come out and help its fellows. How does it do this and can it? In real life the leader would say follow me and they would pile in to the opening against the LH.
The how and the choices to stay within the rules themselves are abstracted.
So if the Ax unit that is helping is defeated and the LH unit is instead a Knight or a Blade, after the victory they what would they do in real life?
Since the abstraction comes from the geometry of the game and causes the issue, it seems to me like a good time to relax that a bit to mirror real life. So with no reference to the rules, I would say there has to be pursuit. At a minimum the troops that win (if only partially engaged by the new Ax helping) will pursue and the rest of the unit follows along. That is how I imagine it (and would play it.)
Bill
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