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Post by medievalthomas on Mar 21, 2019 17:24:57 GMT
Fast Spear are treated as Spear in all ways except that they have use the normal Fast rules (generally +1BW MA, ignore terrain for movement and Recoil on ties v. non-Fast). (Same way Fast Blade & Blade are handled.) All the rules already exist. Fast Pike of course continue to exist. (Many Fast Pike armies should really have been Fast Spear but that's a separate question). We have used Fast Spear in D3H2 for years without problems as players do not have to learn any new rules. By the way D3H2 already solves (mostly) this problem as well as the "Bow problem" (by using Shooters from HOTT). So if you just declare the game is being played using D3H2 rules both these problems are at least minimized without having to create any new rules.
All the questions above are already answered by the existing rules so no more verbiage is necessary unless we want to vary the existing rules and that's another question.
TomT
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Post by greedo on Mar 21, 2019 17:43:56 GMT
Fast Spear are treated as Spear in all ways except that they have use the normal Fast rules (generally +1BW MA, ignore terrain for movement and Recoil on ties v. non-Fast). (Same way Fast Blade & Blade are handled.) All the rules already exist. Fast Pike of course continue to exist. (Many Fast Pike armies should really have been Fast Spear but that's a separate question). We have used Fast Spear in D3H2 for years without problems as players do not have to learn any new rules. By the way D3H2 already solves (mostly) this problem as well as the "Bow problem" (by using Shooters from HOTT). So if you just declare the game is being played using D3H2 rules both these problems are at least minimized without having to create any new rules. All the questions above are already answered by the existing rules so no more verbiage is necessary unless we want to vary the existing rules and that's another question. TomT I'm on board with this. Fast Spear minimizes any new rules or combat modifiers, with as many of the benefits as possible. But to keep us honest. The drawbacks to this I see are: 1) Should 3Sp get a -2 in rough terrain? Does this make them NOT Auxiliaries? Is this a problem? 2) 3Sp still gets a +4 against light troops. Is this a knock-on effect that people can deal with? 3) Recoils and flee results will be the same as 4Sp. Is this acceptable? 4) +4 vs Mounted. Would we expect that from the Auxiliaries? 5) We can't call Roman Auxiliaries "Auxiliaries" anymore! Now they are spears. Not a rules problem, but ya know... This is not intended to be against 3Sp, but these are consequences, and I want to make sure that people would cool with them. Tom: What was your solution to the "Bow problem"? Was it to improve shooting or cc for bows/shooters?
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Post by stevie on Mar 21, 2019 18:56:49 GMT
Tom: What was your solution to the "Bow problem"? Was it to improve shooting or cc for bows/shooters? I can answer that one. In HoTT, ‘Shooters’ (i.e Bows) have the same combat factors as DBA WWg. (i.e. CF 3 against foot and CF 4 against mounted) This works fine in HoTT, as HoTT doesn’t have Pikes (CF 3), just rear-supported Spears (CF 4). HoTT also doesn’t have any Auxiliaries (CF 3), or any Psiloi (CF 2). Giving DBA Bows a shooting factor of 3 makes them far more powerful against DBA Ps, Ax, Pk and Wb. (yep...it’s those old dreaded knock-on effects again...) Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by primuspilus on Mar 21, 2019 19:07:53 GMT
So, Tom, not disputing that these exist already in the rules, but that your solution solves Persian 8Bw, 4Bw and Spanish Sucatrii, all in one troop type?
So we want a troop type to represent Thracian rhompaia, Spanish Scutarii, Hannibal's centre at Cannae as well as Roman Auxilia at Mons Graupius that (a) fights like crap in BGo, (b) is QKed by Wb, (c) is in every respect a hoplite if getting shot at, and (d) repels Cv and Ps who flee from them of doubled.
And you want to leave Persian 8Bw to rot, it would appear.
You are of course entirley free to build your model of what you think classical 4Ax should be. I shall build (and play) mine, though, with the precious little time I have for war (to paraphrase a famous French dictator ...)
Vive la Difference!
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Post by greedo on Mar 21, 2019 20:17:34 GMT
I can answer that one. In HoTT, ‘Shooters’ (i.e Bows) have the same combat factors as DBA WWg. (i.e. CF 3 against foot and CF 4 against mounted) This works fine in HoTT, as HoTT doesn’t have Pikes (CF 3), just rear-supported Spears (CF 4). HoTT also doesn’t have any Auxiliaries (CF 3), or any Psiloi (CF 2). Giving DBA Bows a shooting factor of 3 makes them far more powerful against DBA Ps, Ax, Pk and Wb. (yep...it’s those old dreaded knock-on effects again...) Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_QuarterIt sounds a bit like we need a table of Combat Factors: An Example with 4Ax: 4Ax: [CV vs Light Foot], [CV vs Heavy Foot], [CV vs Shooting], [CV vs Mounted] Certainly not a simple as the 2 that exist right now, but would hopefully simplify the list of combat factors that would get +/- AND it would allow for options if in the future DBA needs to be make further tweaks with no rule changes that need to be introduced.
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Post by primuspilus on Mar 21, 2019 21:01:20 GMT
... and a CF vs camps and towns?
This is not the road that is going to give you a good game, in my view...
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Post by stevie on Mar 21, 2019 21:44:31 GMT
I can answer that one. In HoTT, ‘Shooters’ (i.e Bows) have the same combat factors as DBA WWg. (i.e. CF 3 against foot and CF 4 against mounted) This works fine in HoTT, as HoTT doesn’t have Pikes (CF 3), just rear-supported Spears (CF 4). HoTT also doesn’t have any Auxiliaries (CF 3), or any Psiloi (CF 2). Giving DBA Bows a shooting factor of 3 makes them far more powerful against DBA Ps, Ax, Pk and Wb. (yep...it’s those old dreaded knock-on effects again...) It sounds a bit like we need a table of Combat Factors: Nope...it sounds like we need a simple solution... ...a solution that makes 4Ax and solid Bows a bit stronger in close combat (as the historical accounts say they were)... ...a solution that has no unwanted knock-on effects (as their current behaviour against Ps/Ax/Wb/Bw/WWg seems fine)... ...a solution that is dead simple and easy to apply... Oh look, Primuspilus’ “+1 for 4Ax and solid Bows when fighting heavy foot” ticks all the right boxes. So why are we still trying to bend over backwards to avoid what is staring us in the face? Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by greedo on Mar 21, 2019 22:49:37 GMT
... and a CF vs camps and towns? This is not the road that is going to give you a good game, in my view... Stevie, and Primus, you guys sometimes see fights where are none. I'm not criticizing any of the changes you are suggesting. I'm simply trying to put it in a format that might look more agreeable, and thus more understandable to people who are worried about the growing list of +'s and -'s that they need to consider (i.e. Making the rules more "complicated", even if the mechanics themselves are not that more complex) The table just compiles everything into an easier to reference chart. Perhaps it would work better in a QRS. To Primus' point, if different elements are going to have different factors against camps and cities, then yes, they would warrant their own column, but since everybody gets the same, that would probably not be needed. But since the proposed change effectively separates out Heavy and Light Infantry, then that could be separate. The table could also pull apart the Fast vs Solid versions, 4Ax vs 3Ax. And it could pull apart deep units vs regular, 4Bw vs 8Bw So if you want to have 4Bw and 8Bw have different CVs against heavy, lights, mounted, etc. Then yeah you can do that by changing 2 entries in the table. 8Bw are +4 against heavies for example, 4Bw are +3. Lemme put it together for a visual. That might help explain things a bit better.
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