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Post by wyvern on Feb 23, 2019 5:19:51 GMT
It makes sense and you make a valid point. Alexander's campaign is quite interesting in the sense that considering the size of the empire, there were only four major battles against the Persians (if you include the Persian Gates). I thought there would be more. In fact the more I research ancient warfare, the more convinced I am that major battles were comparitively rare. I have heard this said elsewhere but it seems to be the case. Sometimes only one battle was enough to decide a war. If you are doing campaigns, this means one had to adopt a larger time frame over a bigger geographical area in order to get a campaign that is going to last. This ties in with what Stevie says; that casualties can easily be replaced in this scale of time and one therefore doesn't in fact need to worry about it.One is also compelled to then include more factions with this approach. DBA is therefore ideal for campaigning because one doesn't need huge armies.
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Post by primuspilus on Feb 23, 2019 7:55:33 GMT
Yeah, people forget that while there were only a handful of big decisive engagements, Alexander and his men were fighting pretty much constantly for most of his career. So many Division- and Corps-level actions, towns here, fortresses there, tribes to subdue. No wonder he died young.
I found using Ps as replacements (in cases where other troops are not available) adds a nice ebb and flow to a campaign. Depends on the campaign I guess. Might not work for Condotierri, say, but it works great in the Classical setting.
And Ps really are is a lot of ways the old men, and young boys!
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Post by wyvern on Feb 23, 2019 9:41:17 GMT
Yes, when you think about how long it would take to train as a warrior, it would be a big investment in time and money I suppose. How long did a Legionary actually train for before he was posted somewhere? Just think about how long it took to train and equip a knight or Man-At Arms? If these core troops are killed or wounded it would take some time to replace them, unless you had a reserve somewhere. This would leave as you say old men and boys, or untrained peasants. So Ps would be a good option and of course Hordes. With little or no training one could throw a few javelins and some abuse at the enemy at run away, no probs! LOL Hit and run tactics would suit an army on the back foot too, so Ps would be suitable for this, again as you say. I'm thinking about the Irish and Welsh armies in the Middle Ages who didn't have the same amount of Knights as the English for example.
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Post by stevie on Feb 23, 2019 11:46:44 GMT
Primuspilus’ suggestion does have some merit. So each element lost is replaced with a Ps in the next year’s major battle... ...at least until you can survive a year without being routed. My “Map-Less Wars” system, letting the opponent chose the composition of a routed army, does have its limitations:- Some armies (Spanish Iberians, Polybian Romans) have little variation to chose from... Other armies (Later Persians) have a wide range of different elements that need to be available... (mind you, I’m notorious for using the wrong figures just to pad-out an army, and using 4 figure bases as if 3 figures)However, while Primuspilus’ suggestion looks fine with say the Persians, it may not work so well in other campaigns. For example, when the Romans lose the battle of the River Trebia in 218 BC, their army at the next year’s battle of Lake Trasimene in 217 BC will consist of a lot more Ps troops, and by the time they get to Cannae in 216 BC it won’t look anything like a Roman army or resemble in any way the forces actually present at that battle. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by wyvern on Feb 23, 2019 12:14:37 GMT
Hi Stevie, As you said before battles didn't happen in quick succession and all of these battles occur in separate years. I guess that gives you time enough to train a Legionary. So time scale of a turn as you said again before is crucially linked to casualty replacement. If your turn is a year for example, it might be possible to retrain a lot of what is on your army list. I would argue certain troop types such as knights might take longer. But if your opponent decides your reinforcements he is unlikely to choose good troops like knights either. Interesting stuff!
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Post by stevie on Feb 23, 2019 13:56:33 GMT
Ah, but if it is up to the owner to choose their composition/replacements, won’t every Persian army look like Granicus? i.e. 1 x Kn (General), 1 x Kn, 2 x Cv, 2 x LH, 4 x mercenary Sp, 2 x Ps How can you force the Persians after a series of defeats to get lower and lower in quality, and end up looking like Guagamela? i.e. 1 x LCh (Darius), 2 x Cv, 2 x LH, 1 x SCh, 1 x Kardakes 4Ax, 3 x Takabara 3Ax (or 3Bw?), 1 x conscript Hd, 1 x Ps BUT, at the same time, have each fresh newly raised Polybian Roman army still looking like a Polybian Roman army? i.e 1 x Cv (General), 1 x Cv, 4 x Bd, 2 x Triarii Sp, 2 x Bd or 3/4Ax, 2 x velite Ps What is required is some sort of system that covers both of the above situations. Yes, if the opponent chooses the composition of a routed army, he will pick the worst troops (within the limits of the army list). This is exactly what is needed...the quality will go down. And when the victorious player chooses the composition of a routed Polybian Roman army, it still looks like a Roman army. Because the Polybian Army List has so little variation in it. Again, exactly what is needed...the quality will not go down by so much...just as happened historically. And should the defeated player not wish to fight with a low quality army, then there is something they can do about it... ... don’t get routed, then they will be able to choose what they like as normal in the following year’s major battle. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by wyvern on Feb 24, 2019 5:47:18 GMT
Hi Stevie, it seems like sound reasoning to me. A simple but clever solution to the problem!😀
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Post by primuspilus on Feb 24, 2019 15:11:47 GMT
Primuspilus’ suggestion does have some merit. So each element lost is replaced with a Ps in the next year’s major battle... ...at least until you can survive a year without being routed. My “Map-Less Wars” system, letting the opponent chose the composition of a routed army, does have its limitations:- Some armies (Spanish Iberians, Polybian Romans) have little variation to chose from... Other armies (Later Persians) have a wide range of different elements that need to be available... (mind you, I’m notorious for using the wrong figures just to pad-out an army, and using 4 figure bases as if 3 figures)However, while Primuspilus’ suggestion looks fine with say the Persians, it may not work so well in other campaigns. For example, when the Romans lose the battle of the River Trebia in 218 BC, their army at the next year’s battle of Lake Trasimene in 217 BC will consist of a lot more Ps troops, and by the time they get to Cannae in 216 BC it won’t look anything like a Roman army or resemble in any way the forces actually present at that battle. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
Umm, Stevie, that is pretty much what I said. And I take Ps only if there is nothing else (I put a delay of one reinforcement cycle before you get your Bd and Kn back). So rather than have 12 elements against 6, you have 12against 12, but, as you point out, not looking much like a full Roman army. Exactly. Because it ISN'T. It is what happens if a partial Roman army fails to avoid battle, and has to fight shorthanded. Would the Roman deploy in a tiny huddle in a field, or would they do their best to stretch the line and cover as much ground, and hope to survive some other way? And with luck, next campaign round they get to pick up all their top notch troops again...
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