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Post by martin on Jul 27, 2019 19:16:39 GMT
Paul, I have a feeling that’s a precondition for denizens to sally.....that there is an enemy within ‘x’ BWs of the city (?)
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Post by twrnz on Jul 27, 2019 20:30:32 GMT
Somehow, I've had it my little brain that there is some prerequisite condition before Camp Followers may sally from a Camp, e.g. an enemy element within X-distance to the Camp. Hi Paul, I agree with Martin. I believe you are thinking of the rule for denizens sallying from a city. Page 7 under Denizens. |
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Post by bob on Jul 28, 2019 18:02:03 GMT
Question for tournement: It seems that camp followers could go out the camp and fight with 2 factor against foot element and 0 factor against cavalry element when outside the camp ? Is that correct ? If So it means we have 12 elements + 1 camp followers + 1 camp so 13 elements + 1 camp and the break is a 4 ? Your opinion pls , tks ! .Not quite. “Troops assaulting or defending these (city, fort or camp) use their combat factor against foot and do not count overlaps or flank or rear support.” Thus the combat factor table shows camp followers and denizens as they would be so defending. These have only one combat factor which is the same against foot and mounted, +2. Not 0 against mounted. |
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Post by vtsaogames on Jul 29, 2019 1:02:41 GMT
So camp followers are only 0 against mounted should they sally forth. Thanks.
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Post by martin on Jul 29, 2019 8:54:29 GMT
So camp followers are only 0 against mounted should they sally forth. Thanks. Indeed, but the best use for them is to ‘hard flank’ an enemy who are busy fighting one of your elements - no risk to the camp followers, and a chance of ‘destroyed if beaten’ for the enemy 😊. Have done that, and had it done to me, too.... |
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Post by scottrussell on Jul 29, 2019 15:36:45 GMT
So camp followers are only 0 against mounted should they sally forth. Thanks. Indeed, but the best use for them is to ‘hard flank’ an enemy who are busy fighting one of your elements - no risk to the camp followers, and a chance of ‘destroyed if beaten’ for the enemy 😊. Have done that, and had it done to me, too.... And is it the case that it takes three PIP's for a camp follower element to do this if sallying from within the camp (an initial 2 PIP's to move plus an extra one as they are garrisoning the camp)? But also only two PIP's for denizens in the same situation, as they cannot "garrison" a city? Scott |
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Post by martin on Jul 29, 2019 18:43:31 GMT
Indeed, but the best use for them is to ‘hard flank’ an enemy who are busy fighting one of your elements - no risk to the camp followers, and a chance of ‘destroyed if beaten’ for the enemy 😊. Have done that, and had it done to me, too.... And is it the case that it takes three PIP's for a camp follower element to do this if sallying from within the camp (an initial 2 PIP's to move plus an extra one as they are garrisoning the camp)? But also only two PIP's for denizens in the same situation, as they cannot "garrison" a city? Scott Don’t think so, Scott. Being camp followers OR currently garrisoning a city, fort or camp are the the same (a) condition on page 6, so the extra PIP only applies the once (?). [Also, no one ‘garrisons’ a camp. It is ‘occupied’, sez p7....] However, unleash the hounds, and see what other replies we get.... |
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Post by paddy649 on Jul 29, 2019 19:01:24 GMT
I agree with Martin - a single condition applies so only 1 extra PIP. 2 extra PIPs if both conditions apply - so if both camp followers and out of command.
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Post by bob on Jul 29, 2019 21:16:48 GMT
"(a) If the moving element or group includes any Scythed Chariots not moving into contact with enemy, Elephants, Hordes, War Wagons, Artillery, denizens or camp followers, or is an element currently garrisoning a city, fort or camp." Ditto to Martin and Paddy on the movement. Wouldn't it be great if Phil were totally consistent. Notice the text above referring to an element "garrisoning a ... camp"  24 people read that text and didn't notice the slippage. Or did but probably Phil did not want to add the correct text because it would not fit. "(a) If the moving element or group includes any Scythed Chariots not moving into contact with enemy, Elephants, Hordes, War Wagons, Artillery, denizens or camp followers, or is an element currently garrisoning a city or fort or occupying a camp." I have been thinking about camp followers and denizens factor against mounted. I really want to think that the intent was that they fight with +2 vs foot and mounted out side the camp or city. The 0 was given vs mounted because they would use only the foot value against both foot and mounted while in the area. However, I cannot give any rationale for using +2 vs mounted in the open. Just an anomaly that they fight +2 in the camp or city vs mounted but only 0 in the open. Perhaps intended, as these types would be weak vs mounted in the open, but I wonder if weaker than Psiloi? I think towards the end Phil wanted to hurry up the completion and there were some loose ends from adding last minute ideas such at sallying. I do not remember anyone but him wanting that rule so nobody looked for any inconsistencies. |
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Post by stevie on Jul 29, 2019 22:41:02 GMT
And I agree with you Bob. Mr Barker sometimes uses ‘garrison’ when he means ‘occupy’, and vice versa. Take mounted that happen to capture a city or fort (and this is the only way they can be in a city or fort). They cannot form a garrison, so they don’t get the +4 defensive bonus. But if they’re not a garrison, then it only costs them 1 PIP to leave such places. So while the officers or clan leaders have to go from tavern-to-tavern and from brothel-to-brothel in order to drag the foot soldiers out and get them formed-up in the market square ready to leave, the mounted apparently are already there just sitting on their horses ready and waiting for new orders. Things would have been soooo much clearer if Phil had used the following protocols:- * garrisons get the defensive bonus, and cost 2 PIPs to leave. * occupiers don’t get the defensive bonus, but still cost 2 PIPs to leave. In other words, the page 8 “Player Initiative Points” should have said:- “...or is an element currently garrisoning occupying a city, fort or camp.” As for civilians having a combat factor of zero against mounted...I think it’s about right. Just because we have to mount them two to a base doesn’t mean they are the same as Psiloi. Professional skirmishers, such as Alexander’s Agrianians and Republican Roman Velites, with helmets, shields, and proper equipment, would be much better skilled fighters than a bunch of bare-headed unfit shopkeepers and civilians with improvised weapons and no shields. They’re lucky even to be given a combat factor of 2 against foot! Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by martin on Jul 30, 2019 6:56:05 GMT
Take mounted that happen to capture a city or fort (and this is the only way they can be in a city or fort). > > So while the officers or clan leaders have to go from tavern-to-tavern and from brothel-to-brothel in order to drag the foot soldiers out and get them formed-up in the market square ready to leave, the mounted apparently are already there just sitting on their horses ready and waiting for new orders.... Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
I subcontracted the running of my BUAs to the Salvation Army, to avoid the extra PIP 🎲 needed to depart them....no taverns, and no brothels......😎 |
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Post by vodnik on Jul 30, 2019 7:35:25 GMT
...a fighting element is one of the dozent for a DBA game and must not be confused with decorative miniature to occupy a camp not being part of DBA fighting elements...
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Post by stevie on Jul 30, 2019 8:34:31 GMT
Take mounted that happen to capture a city or fort (and this is the only way they can be in a city or fort). > > So while the officers or clan leaders have to go from tavern-to-tavern and from brothel-to-brothel in order to drag the foot soldiers out and get them formed-up in the market square ready to leave, the mounted apparently are already there just sitting on their horses ready and waiting for new orders....
I subcontracted the running of my BUAs to the Salvation Army, to avoid the extra PIP 🎲 needed to depart them....no taverns, and no brothels......😎 ...and no fun!  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by vtsaogames on Jul 30, 2019 16:27:37 GMT
As for civilians having a combat factor of zero against mounted...I think it’s about right. Just because we have to mount them two to a base doesn’t mean they are the same as Psiloi.
I never let that bother me. My camp followers have 4 peasants with makeshift weapons per base. And they serve for every army, from Polybian Rome through Swiss pikes. |
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24 people read that text and didn't notice the slippage. Or did but probably Phil did not want to add the correct text because it would not fit.
