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Post by Vic on Sept 12, 2018 16:24:12 GMT
Hi all,
I was just wondering if anyone is aware of 15mm miniatures suitable for Finno-Ugrian peoples, be it Finns, Estonians, Mordvins or Yugrians, in the 13th-14th centuries? Or is it a black spot without any manufactured ranges?
I can think of a couple of Baltic ranges, as well as more generic ranges, that could be used/converted, but is there any more specific range? Perhaps a Magyar range with a decent foot selection?
Thanks for your input.
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Post by vodnik on Sept 13, 2018 8:27:33 GMT
...you could try a mix of different manufacturers:
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Post by HectorBlackwolf on Sept 13, 2018 16:10:56 GMT
I admit complete ignorance of the subject. But I would be very interested in knowing what separates the appearance of well-dressed Finno-Ugrian gentleman from any other Dark Age/Medieval Slavic-Baltic type.
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Post by Simon on Sept 13, 2018 17:02:21 GMT
Some of the tribal infantry from Mick yarrow's Conquest of Siberia range might work.
Simon
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Post by goragrad on Sept 14, 2018 0:43:53 GMT
Notes for the Estonians in Purple equate them with Pruss with possibly rectangular shields.
Prussians/Lithuanian foot that I have seen from various manufacturers all have almonds.
On the other hand Alex has stated that at least for Rus this is an error based on icons of military saints who were equipped with a Roman shield and that almonds are the correct shield for them. Whether that applies to all of the Slavs and then to the Finno-Ugaritic is another question.
Black Hat (sold to Fighting 15s) does have some Pruss and Lithuanians.
Aside frmo that, I think Essex may have some later figures in their Eastern line.
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Post by vodnik on Sept 14, 2018 7:17:43 GMT
...so, there are more Siberian people in winter:
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Post by Vic on Sept 14, 2018 12:29:13 GMT
...so, there are more Siberian people in winter: Are those Mick Yarrow's Siberians?
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Post by vodnik on Sept 14, 2018 12:58:27 GMT
...yes, former Kremlin but it is not so easy to mix with other manufacturers:
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Post by vodnik on Sept 14, 2018 13:13:57 GMT
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Post by Vic on Sept 17, 2018 11:44:55 GMT
I admit complete ignorance of the subject. But I would be very interested in knowing what separates the appearance of well-dressed Finno-Ugrian gentleman from any other Dark Age/Medieval Slavic-Baltic type. I'm not an expert either, so I'll probably read up on the subject and come back with what I find, but from what I've gathered here and there, I wouldn't expect them to be particularly similar to their neighbours, at least during their respective prehistories - Finno-Ugrian peoples were typically pretty isolated until relatively late. Indeed looking at their respective traditional costumes and art there seems to be some clear commonalities in clothing, colour palettes, music and so on even today. Admittedly, it may be complicated to find clear patterns in terms of warfare - as although Finno-Ugrian peoples were a distinct ethnic group that is linguistically and culturally more distant from Slavic, Baltic and Germanic peoples than these were from each other, they were also scattered amongst them in a way that lends itself to centrifugal dispersion. It's more reasonable to expect Livonians and Estonians to be heavily influenced by the Letts and other Baltic neighbours; Sami, Finns, Karelians and other northern Finno-Ugrians to be heavily influenced by Nordic peoples; Finno-Ugrians in the Urals to be heavily influenced by Bolghars and nomads, and Magyars to have been heavily Turkicised in their trajectory from the Urals to Hungary, so that by historic times (which typically correspond to their conquest by foreign peoples, or by their entry into Europe, in the case of the Magyars) we can expect some serious divergence amongst them. I haven't followed up on the reading suggestions in the Purple Book, but the fragments I've found don't seem to sit well with the suggestion that Estonians in the 13th century would look similar to Lithuanians or southern Baltics. For instance, there had been extensive exchange between what is now Finland and Estonia since antiquity, and the archaeological pattern in the Estonian Iron Age suggests a local culture of fortified hilltops that experiences a transformation during the Dark Ages due to Norse - not Baltic - presence and trade. In Finland, which is as far as I can tell better documented, shields are almost invariably round, initially with a metal centre but later wood-only (possibly by Scandinavian influence), and the dominant weapons are spear, axe, bow and above all, the 'ango', a particular type of javelin made of soft metal that would twist and trap a shield on impact (similar to the Roman pilum). It is noteworthy that these javelins haven't been found amongst Baltic peoples, but a few have been found in Estonia. Similarly, a native Finnish style of short sword (in a period in which Viking, Germanic and continental swords tend to be of a longer style that emanates from the Rhine) appears in Finnish and Estonian, but not Baltic, archaeological sites. It seems pointed helmets, which possibly were the result of Slavic/Ruthenian influence on Lithuanians, are absent from Estonian Iron Age sites, as are the characteristic Lithuanian trapezoidal shields. These are however also absent from other Baltic peoples before the creation of the early Lithuanian state, so that shouldn't be surprising; almond shields seem to be the typical pattern amongst Baltic peoples. Almost all the depictions of Finnish or Estonian Iron Age head protections and headwear I've found have been round caps - be it small round metal helmets or fabric caps. For Estonia and its similarities with neighbouring Baltics, this is probably further complicated by the time of the Baltic crusades as tribal confederations appear that sometimes cross cultural lines and there is a variety of tribes, both of Baltic and Finno-Ugrian origin, fighting for both sides, for or against the Livonian and Teutonic Orders, which operated throughout the territory of what is now the Baltic States, so by that point on it should be harder to assign archaeological findings to cultures based only on geography. Looking back on what I've written, I think it's probably just best, instead of looking for the commonalities, to represent Finns, Karelians, Sami, Estonians and other Finno-Ugric peoples around the Baltic with light, unarmoured Viking miniatures - the styles of shields, helmets, clothing and weapons are probably the closest match. Slavic or nomadic Asian foot could similarly work for Mordvins, Mari, Yugrians and other peoples living around the Urals, and Siberian miniatures for the (not Finno-Ugric, but Uralic cousins) Samoyedic peoples. Magyars shouldn't be a problem as there are plenty of ranges for them. Thanks to everyone for the input, I'll try to dig some literature and write here if I find something interesting.
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Post by Vic on Sept 17, 2018 14:15:07 GMT
And, of course, from the point of view of DBA 3.0 it is just convenient to build a Prussian/Estonian army with the same miniatures, as they share a fair number of elements.
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Post by HectorBlackwolf on Sept 19, 2018 19:33:39 GMT
What about the gentry. Pagan or not, by the 13th century would they have adopted the equipment of other Northern/Central European peoples? In other words, great helm, long mail coat and pants, lance, kite shield. Or would they still be using the more traditional dark age weapons and armor we associate with the vikings (pointed, open faced helmet; mail shirt; etc.)?
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