|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 25, 2019 6:59:35 GMT
Wait till your hoplites hit the 8Bw. You can often get easy recoils and 5-2's pretty quick. When DBA 3 first came out, I won 3 straight with the Persians. That was using RAW. Then the fourth game the shooting dice went cold. And the fifth as well. Wasn't pretty for the Persians. It also sounds to me like you were punting about on your flanks a fair bit. A Greek hoplite army is built for one thing: HI close combat. Hurry up and get them into action. Never mind faffing about too much! Remember, the Persians get on average two shots at you before you are right up in their faces. Your bowfire kill rate is impressive.Your luck will change.
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Feb 25, 2019 7:23:08 GMT
498 Ephesus v mostly Ionian Greeks with some Athenians and Euboeans - Persians win but this is thought to be due to Cavalry/Light Infantry overwhelming the flanks Miletus Ephesus I think that Miletus was a siege. No question that virtually all near east armies were better at siege warfare than the classical Greeks. Jim
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 25, 2019 15:36:15 GMT
Wait till your hoplites hit the 8Bw. You can often get easy recoils and 5-2's pretty quick. When DBA 3 first came out, I won 3 straight with the Persians. That was using RAW. Then the fourth game the shooting dice went cold. And the fifth as well. Wasn't pretty for the Persians. It also sounds to me like you were punting about on your flanks a fair bit. A Greek hoplite army is built for one thing: HI close combat. Hurry up and get them into action. Never mind faffing about too much! Remember, the Persians get on average two shots at you before you are right up in their faces. Your bowfire kill rate is impressive.Your luck will change. To quote Dad’s Army “they don’t like it up ‘em cap’n”! Will attempt to do a straight up charge but the flanking cav is still worrisome.
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 25, 2019 17:47:37 GMT
Will continue testing this week, but if the +1 vs HI proves too heavy, there could be few options: 1) Give the 8Bw Side Support with other 8Bw. Has been suggested before, and will fall apart quickly, but might give a slight edge in the first couple of combats which is all you need with a bunch of Cav coming at your flanks. 2) Give 8Bw the +1 vs HI only on a turn they didn't move. Might be a way to emphasize their "Pavisier" nature. Also been suggested before, and historically sketchy, much like the Sparabara anyway. They are probably not going to be moving anyway, and it might get complicated when the line breaks up and is reformed, but still, a thought. 3) Give only the Immortals +1 vs HI. So yeah you get it but only with 1/4 of your 8Bw, especially since your general is off riding around with his Cav, and not being manly in the fronk rank like the Hoplites. Probably the weakest of the options gamewise. Did I mention the Greek general got gunned down last game? In terms of actually trying to convince PB to change for 3.1, I leave it up to you guys, but it'll need more than 3 play testers (especially since 1 of them is inexperienced). Maybe a tournament or 2 on different continents. In terms of rule changes and evolution, I have to site Privateer Press and their Warmachine rules as a best-in-class example of putting out live rule tests to the community, and evolving the rules over the course of years. Granted their rules are free to download, but they use tournaments (and players enthusiastically embrace) as a testing ground for modifications to ensure that everybody can have a good time regardless of the army they pick.
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 25, 2019 21:06:37 GMT
I think that Miletus was a siege. No question that virtually all near east armies were better at siege warfare than the classical Greeks. Jim Actually, it was Persian HI storming the fortifications at critical points. Now if you are en effete, pyjama-clad girly-man weilding a laundry-basket lid as a shield, the only thing worse than facing hoplites, is surely facing hoplites who also happen to be in fortified, improved positions, no? Miletus was not much better defended than Thermopylae. And there was no secret goat path to bypass the fortification and render it moot. Miletus eventually came down to the prowess of the HI on both sides. By, the way, Miletus as a fortified port, no?
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 25, 2019 21:14:33 GMT
The thing everyone forgets is that the Athenians lost their campaign with Syracuse (suffered a humiliating fiasco) for the SAME reasons the Persians lost against Greece in Greece. Operating a successful invasion that relied heavily on sea supply routes really have been a constant problem. It wasn't that Syracuse was so much better than Athens, by the way. These were strategic defeats.
Remember, the Greeks lost against Persian armies in the Western Satrapies just as often (if you believe the Carians were also HI hoplites, as DBA does). So we have a Persian empire that is 100% winning against Greek hoplite armies in Persia before 490 BC, and you have a Greek military system that is 50% winning against Persian armies in Greece afterwards. Marathon was the historical equivalent of Midway. Plataea was the island-hopping grind.
Sorry if we have a hard time with this, the Persians sacked and burned Athens. And crushed the defenders of Thermopylae. The Spartans ran home, and hid for over a full year (!), while the Persians had their way with MOST of Greece. Macedon, Thrace and Thebes all cut immediate deals with the Persians. The Athenians hid out on an island.
Forget Hollywood propaganda, and the movie '300'. This is fact.
Funny too, no one seems to want to make the Spartan 4Sp "better" than the Athenians in the DBA system. Yet apparently there was some considerable trepidation among the hoplite states to face Sparta in open battle.
RAW simply utterly dismiss the Persians as being able to defeat Greek hoplite armies, despite history showing that this happened more than once.
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 25, 2019 21:30:04 GMT
Hi Greedo, sorry, I am not understanding why you are so afraid of Cv hitting the flank of a Sp element? What is the element that is pinning it? If 8Bw, OK, you need to screen your flank with rough or bad going? Do you not take advantage of terrain to anchor your Sp? Also, that is where your Ps can hide in RGo, and TZ-lock any attempt at Cv to bypass the position. But you realise that at Plataea, the Persian Cv sacked the camps, and poisoned the water supply, forcing the Greeks to push forward and fight. History tells us Plataea was MUCH more like Waterloo, than like the German blitz trough Belgium in 1940. That is to say, it was a damn close-run battle, with BOTH sides being convinced the Persians were heavy favourites to win, and Greek desperation, Stalingrad-style, led them to grind out a victory where everyone thought they were sure to lose.
I always have fun pointing out that if history is any guide, then French Napoleonic infantry need to be graded as crap, since they lost in Russia, at Leipzig, in Spain, and at Waterloo. So they must be graded as junk, clearly.
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 25, 2019 21:37:33 GMT
Funny too, no one seems to want to make the Spartan 4Sp "better" than the Athenians in the DBA system. Yet apparently there was some considerable trepidation among the hoplite states to face Sparta in open battle. RAW simply utterly dismiss the Persians as being able to defeat Greek hoplite armies, despite history showing that this happened more than once. I've been occasionally asking if we can have Superior/Inferior troops in addition to Fast, like DBMM, but I think people don't want to overcomplicate DBA. Another question. RAW? What does it stand for?
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 25, 2019 21:42:49 GMT
I'm in favor of giving 8BW shieldwall side support. Prefer to treat 4Aux as Fast Spear. TomT That does work in theory, but you still find even 5 vs 4 immediately crushes an 8Bw battleline: it is really easy to generate double overlaps on the 8Bw, giving an immediate 5-1. RAW: Rules as Written. By the way, a Sp line can shove Cv off the board once they get going. As the Greek, I love hunting down careless Persian Cv elements - Mardonius, anyone?
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 25, 2019 21:47:15 GMT
Hi Greedo, sorry, I am not understanding why you are so afraid of Cv hitting the flank of a Sp element? What is the element that is pinning it? If 8Bw, OK, you need to screen your flank with rough or bad going? Do you not take advantage of terrain to anchor your Sp? Also, that is where your Ps can hide in RGo, and TZ-lock any attempt at Cv to bypass the position. But you realise that at Plataea, the Persian Cv sacked the camps, and poisoned the water supply, forcing the Greeks to push forward and fight. History tells us Plataea was MUCH more like Waterloo, than like the German blitz trough Belgium in 1940. That is to say, it was a damn close-run battle, with BOTH sides being convinced the Persians were heavy favourites to win, and Greek desperation, Stalingrad-style, led them to grind out a victory where everyone thought they were sure to lose. I always have fun pointing out that if history is any guide, then French Napoleonic infantry need to be graded as crap, since they lost in Russia, at Leipzig, in Spain, and at Waterloo. So they must be graded as junk, clearly. A good point. My testing up to this point has been a billiard table, so my spears fear the Cv a lot more. My main point was that if the 8Bw don't actually die, and instead just recoil a lot, then we'll have Cannae again. So the question then becomes, how do the Greeks win? If they sit tight with terrain on the flank, then they won't move, where the Persians will walk up and shoot at them. A rock and hard place. More testing on my side (with hopefully "normal" rolls) will help iron this out. Again, I invite a LOT more people to test these ideas. Having the tournament crowd on board would do wonders to the testing of new ideas. My reservations/options were merely to avoid the possibility of going too far in the other direction, where it becomes incredibly hard for a Hoplite army to win. That said, your argument seems to be that's how it should be. One of the reasons I want to play Thessalians instead of Athenians... I shall retreat now to my cabin to hang out with my Elite French Guards, Elite German WW2 infantry, Elite Tiger tanks, Elite Spartans, and Elite Mongolian Horsemen with super arrows Oh wargamers, and their super units..
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 25, 2019 21:49:28 GMT
I'm in favor of giving 8BW shieldwall side support. Prefer to treat 4Aux as Fast Spear. TomT That does work in theory, but you still find even 5 vs 4 immediately crushes an 8Bw battleline: it is really easy to generate double overlaps on the 8Bw, giving an immediate 5-1. Hang on. Define "immediately". If it's in 1 turn, then ok, but if it'll still take 2-3 turns to break the line up, that's lots of time for other troops to do a lot. Will test..
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 25, 2019 22:35:11 GMT
Line of 4 x 8Bw against a line of 5x 4Sp. At least one overlap. Go down the line skipping alternate 8Bw. With high probabiity, there is at least one that is double overlapped. You resolve that fight last, at 5-1.
As the bounding player, combat is in the order YOU specify. A subtlety easily lost when new to 3.0.
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 25, 2019 22:38:34 GMT
Line of 4 x 8Bw against a line of 5x 4Sp. At least one overlap. Go down the line skipping alternate 8Bw. With high probabiity, there is at least one that is double overlapped. You resolve that fight last, at 5-1. As the bounding player, combat is in the order YOU specify. A subtlety easily lost when new to 3.0. But flanking those 8Bw with un-recoilable 7Hd would help to pin the flanks in place yes? Of course the 7Hd can get doubled, but they won't back up at least.
|
|
|
Post by medievalthomas on Feb 25, 2019 22:47:39 GMT
I appreciate how weak any Bow base line is in DBX. But as for balance please remember that the Bow is shooting the advancing line as it approaches. You hope to do some damage before they make contact - thats why you can then withstand starting with lower factors - you've (maybe) punched a hole in their line and so have an overlap.
8BW cannot go to CF 5 in Close (!?); they would be super troops. They can hang in at +4. I'm used to "true Bow" with my HYW English who must, even with side support, hang in there at +3.
TomT
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 26, 2019 1:22:41 GMT
Line of 4 x 8Bw against a line of 5x 4Sp. At least one overlap. Go down the line skipping alternate 8Bw. With high probabiity, there is at least one that is double overlapped. You resolve that fight last, at 5-1. As the bounding player, combat is in the order YOU specify. A subtlety easily lost when new to 3.0. But flanking those 8Bw with un-recoilable 7Hd would help to pin the flanks in place yes? Of course the 7Hd can get doubled, but they won't back up at least. The PIP cost of maneuvering those Hd into position is prohibitive. It means the Persian is neglecting something else. Go kill stuff with your excess hoplites!! Lord knows you have enough of them, and Cv cannot hurt them frontally! Remember, bowfire is (excuse the pun) very hit and miss. History says the Greeks were scared enough of it to devise TWO whole battleplans around trying to mitigate its effects (three if you include Alex at Issus). At both Plataea, AND Marathon, the threat of being slowly ground to dust by Persian archery forced hoplites to leave the safety of their defensive positions, and attack the Persians. Both Marathon and Plataea were affairs that hung in the balance. Marathon was most like Cannae, but the fact of (a) the vulnerable Persian landing site, with almost complete lack of safe egress, and (b) the absence of a threat from Persian Cv contributed to the scale of the Persian disaster. We realise all the slaughter happened AFTER the Persian line collapsed. But it most definitely did not simply crumble at the first sniff of an aspis and a doru. Plataea was a much tougher affair for the Greeks. They suffered more severe casualties, and the Persians left the field in mixed order, depending on the unit. But the likely multicultural diversity of the Persian army, coupled with divided loyalties and disgust at having been abandoned by the main army, would surely have played a role in the mass desertions and panic in the routed Persian army. I cannot imagine Napoleon's Grande Armee had it far worse than the Persian army on the long, exposed retreat back to Asia, along the sea route, through the mountains of Thrace, abandoned by the shattered remnants of their fleet, and left to their own devices. How that gets translated by wargamers into "Persian HI sucked" is beyond me.
|
|