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Post by Vic on Jul 10, 2018 11:15:45 GMT
Hi all, I'd like to share a quick campaign system that I'm currently testing. It is intended for 2 players with historically matched armies. The emphasis is on conservation of forces versus risk. In keeping with the DBA philosophy of functional abstractions over detail, the strategic decisions are highly streamlined, but hopefully still provide interesting choices for the players. It is intended to play quickly, with a relatively small number of battles, but it is open ended, allowing for player's decisions to shape the length and intensity of the campaign.
If you try the system, I'd be immensely grateful to receive any positive or negative feedback or an after action report.
Note: I got a "forum attachment size exceeded" error when adding the file as attachment, so here's a link:
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Post by nangwaya on Jul 10, 2018 14:46:35 GMT
Looking forward to trying this out!
It means I will have to paint up some more figures for my Albanians, as I did not do all the options, just enough to get 12 elements.
Thanks!
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Post by bluestone28 on Jul 11, 2018 21:06:41 GMT
Thanks a lot Vic, very interesting! and useful!
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Post by stevie on Jul 12, 2018 9:29:18 GMT
I think your campaign system is excellent Vic. It’s a shame that something like this was not included in the rules, because quite frankly what’s on page 14 is not much use to anyone. Still, we players are not totally helpless, and if we think something is missing from DBA then we ourselves can add it. Here are some minor observations and possible suggestions for you:- Evading Battle: I like it, but prefer to call it a “Strategic Withdrawal” (it just sounds better). Reinforcement: I’d let the opponent choose which elements are used to replace losses, keeping within the normal army list maximums and minimums of course. This represents low quality troops being hastily raised to rebuild the army. Once an army has been reinforced back up to it’s original strength by the opponent (usually 12 elements), any subsequent reinforcement points during this or later seasons could be used by the army’s owner to replace any current elements (other than generals) with better alternatives. (This would cause defeated armies to become lower and lower in quality, as happened to the Late Persians each time they were defeated by Alexander the Great. It also gives an army a chance to improve their army composition if they can avoid heavy casualties...possibly by making a “Strategic Withdrawal” and giving up territory in order to buy time for more training and recruiting. Ah, decisions, decisions... )Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients, and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by Vic on Jul 12, 2018 12:30:12 GMT
Great suggestions, Stevie! I like your term for the evasion mechanism, I'll use it The reinforcement mechanism you suggest is intriguing. I had considered using reinforcements beyond 12 elements to replace existing elements, but mostly for flexibility - i.e. changing the composition to adapt to the campaign on the flight; in the end I left that out out of simplicity. I like the idea of the opponent picking which elements arrive as reinforcements, but since element choice is quite flexible it could lead to the opponent choosing fairly useless troop types except for very homogeneous elements; and while the historic angle would be fine for "generic" or easy to recruit troop types (such as Auxilia, Psiloi, Warband or Bows) I'm not sure that it makes sense in a campaign, for instance, to let a player force the enemy to carry around Artillery, a Litter, or a single Pike element without the possibility of rear support, which, while can be pretty useless against certain types of enemies and therefore picked as ballast by the opponent, cannot be thought of as hastily recruited locals, quite the opposite. It also forces a player to provide elements for all army options - whereas, as written, players can play the campaign without needing elements for options they won't use. I toyed with the idea of restricting reinforcements outside of a player's home space to generic troop types and only allowing for specialist elements at home, which would sort of represent these restrictions, but didn't arrive to a formula that I was happy with or that could work well for a wide variety of periods and regions, so I ended up dropping it. In any case, I think your proposal could work well with the Seasons rule, since that provides regular reinforcements to both armies and would diminish the impact of the opponent choosing ineffective troop types. I think that's a good candidate for playtesting! I'll add it as an optional rule until I get the chance to test the reinforcement system more thoroughly. I'll update the document in a few days to incorporate your suggestions and a a couple omissions I noticed.
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Post by Vic on Aug 3, 2018 12:19:24 GMT
Quick update - revision 2 uploaded (can be accessed with the same link), correcting some mistakes and missions and incorporating reinforcement restrictions as an optional rule.
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Post by paddy649 on Aug 4, 2018 7:48:32 GMT
Vic - these look really good. I’ll try them out.
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Post by Cromwell on Aug 5, 2018 19:29:53 GMT
I really like the look of this campaign system. I am toying with an Early Imperil Roman and Parthian campaign and this will do the job nicely. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Vic on Aug 6, 2018 9:36:23 GMT
Thanks for your interest! I'll be happy to receive any feedback if try it.
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Post by haywire on Aug 12, 2018 19:55:03 GMT
I had a question about the campaign rules.
We had a go with them today. The Alexandrian army moved from (3) Tyre to (4) Arbela and engaged the Persian army. We used the Super Stevie TimeDisplay and Alexander ran out of time and, in the process, lost three elements to the Persians two. Therefore a Persian win.
Of the losses, the Persians recovered one. They outnumber the Macedonians by 11 elements to 9, and decide to pursue the Macedonians who have dropped back to (2) Miletos.
The Macedonians can either fight, outnumbered, or withdraw. If they withdraw, they will still not have the initiative, and cannot reinforce. And the Persians can follow up. The Persians will therefore always be able to fight the Macedonians at good odds.
It seems there is little point in withdrawing. Unless, I guess, you are using the seasons rules and winter comes.
Perhaps a rule modification is needed. If the withdrawing army rolls higher than the attacker, then they drop back and regain the initiative. If it is a draw, then the attacker retains the initiative If the withdrawing army loses, then the attacker has the initiative, with the penalties on the withdrawer that are mentioned in your rules.
What are your thoughts?
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Post by Vic on Aug 12, 2018 21:47:01 GMT
I think that's an excellent suggestion. I proposed that the attacker kept the initiative to avoid disadvantaging the attacker too harshly compared to a system without the chance to withdraw, but it is indeed too punishing for a player who is trying to earn time to reinforce (which, with the current rolls to recover losses, will be often after a lost battle), so I like your system a lot. I'll incorporate it in the next revision.
This way, there's a higher incentive for an army to withdraw as the potential benefit is higher - but doing so can still result in an undesired battle with some disadvantage for the player who failed at withdrawing. The only thing that might be a bit concerning is that highly mobile armies can be almost sure to succeed at withdrawing against a slow infantry army, so there isn't much risk involved in that case - but withdrawing still means ceding a space to the enemy, so there's a cost, and I think it's a realistic advantage for a very mobile army versus a heavy foot army.
Thanks a lot for the suggestion!
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Post by nangwaya on Aug 12, 2018 23:08:08 GMT
Glad you brought these suggestions 'haywire' and saying you are going to update the rules 'vic'.
I just played a battle this morning, and the Albanians lost four elements to the Serbian two.
Albanians moved back from Dragobia (modern day Bajram Curri), to Pukë, and for the first Strategic bound both armies reinforced (and both armies failing to recoup lost elements in battle).
In the next Strategic bound the Serbians move into Pukë, but with two elements down on the Albanian side, wasn't too excited in engaging the Serbs., so better to try and withdraw to Alessio (modern day Lezhë), take reinforcements (since Albanians now have the initiative), then find out the Serbs. want to do.
Sounds like a plan.
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Post by Vic on Aug 13, 2018 13:03:34 GMT
The other aspect that I'm fairly sure will require tweaking is the roll to check if a destroyed element returns. Requiring a 6 for the loser and a 5-6 for the winner gives a tangible advantage to the winner, and is intended to punish battle losses, but it's probably too strict - I alternatively considered 5-6 for the loser and 4-6 for the winner, which would result in fewer losses but would also reduce the edge the winner has over the loser in terms of casualties.
What do you think?
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Post by primuspilus on Aug 13, 2018 18:13:43 GMT
I think your campaign system is excellent Vic. It’s a shame that something like this was not included in the rules, because quite frankly what’s on page 14 is not much use to anyone. Still, we players are not totally helpless, and if we think something is missing from DBA then we ourselves can add it. Here are some minor observations and possible suggestions for you:- Evading Battle: I like it, but prefer to call it a “Strategic Withdrawal” (it just sounds better).
To be more historically flavourful, it should be called "Refuse Battle", as opposed to its polar opposite, "Accept Battle". This is my understanding of how ancient authors described the interplay between invaders and the home side. But that's just me getting ready to don a really, really, really short white skirt, and roleplay as Alexander the Great, while I smash Persia for the good of the free world, ... or some such. See, Blackadder has assured us that in the Ancient World, the shorter the skirt, the more important the wearer was ...
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Post by nangwaya on Aug 14, 2018 13:57:18 GMT
I have pnly played one battle so far, and thus have little to go on in regards to altering the chance of recouping elements lost in battle. Perhaps 'haywire' has some ideas?
One thing that I have done so far, is that I allowed the Albanians to use allies, and one of the four elements lost was an ally. After the battle, I rolled to see if the remaining allies wanted to continue or cut their losses and return to Italy. Based on how bad the Albanians lost to the Serbians, I gave the allies a 50% of staying on. The roll turned out that the allies returned to Italy (Venice perhaps?).
I then rolled for two elements from the Albanian army list to replace the allies, and ended up with two psiloi.
One thing I wished I had done, is record how each element did (did they survive, destroy an elements, etc..), and see over time what ends up happening to each element.
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