Effectiveness of 8Bw

I pretty sure that Primuspilus will have something to say on this subject, as the weakness of 8Bw is one of his pet hates.
(Just as the weakness of Ax is one of my pet hates)

Here are two possible House Rule solutions.

Close Range Shooting
DBA 3.0 is odd in that close range shooting, instead of being more deadly as you would expect, is actually weaker.
This is because page 10 paragraph 4 says that “Bows and War Wagons must shoot at targets in their Threat Zone”.
Thus concentrated fire on a single target is frequently denied to the shooters at close range.
You could amended it so that “Bows and War Wagons must shoot at mounted targets in their Threat Zone”.
Then they would still be able to concentrate their fire at close range...if no mounted were in their TZ.
(After all, which is the greatest threat: the nearer foot target, or the slightly further away mounted target?)

Side Support For 8Bw
The troop descriptions on page 4 says that:-
“mixed units with several ranks of close-fighters in front of the shooters are depicted as 8Bw/8Lb/8Cb”.
Well, when Spears in DBA lock shields and form a defensive shield-wall, they gain side support.
So why not allow 8Bw to be side supported by solid Bd and 8Bw, as their front rank has also locked shields.
This would at least give them another +1 in close combat in addition to their +1 for being doubled based.
(With a total combat factor of 4 in close combat, they’ll give the Hoplites’ combat factor of 5 a tougher fight)



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018

Persian Sparabara were 10 ranks deep. Hoplites were 6-12 ranks deep. I can see that making them 8Bw (twice the depth of Hoplites???) gives them the +1 in close combat but that is a little offset when the first one lost counts for two. Unless that element happens to represent the Immortals I don't think that is a fair representation of the morale loss given Sparabara were very common in the army. In the Greco-Persian Wars, they should lose to Hoplites more than they win but they need to win enough to make them playable. Or at least last long enough for a cavalry/light infantry outflanking move. Maybe Recoil Solid foot on equal scores could be a start?

Cheers

Jim

There are also 8BW in some of the Chinese army lists, Stevie.

There the lists note them as a mix of ji halberds and crossbow or regular archers.

Now I have seen at least one article on another forum stating that the Chinese mads more use of shields in the earlier centuries than is usually credited. Depending on the length of the halberd this would be more of a blade or pike wall. Not sure how that would work for the side support if the later (although the later would then make them even more effective against mounted).

Please understand that no one really liked the 8BW/double element "solution", we were constrained by the legacy of old armies having these double depth elements, the need to do something (there were previously just liabilities), the constraint of the 12 "equal" element model and no point system. So we just went with a bad solution rather than no solution.

As to the historical question: did the Persians not generally greatly outnumber the Greeks (I realize that the Greek accounts are not doubt exaggerated). If so, you'll never make this work in DBA without throwing out the 12 element arbitrary limit.

The fix for medieval "bow" is to use Shooters out of HOTT so this problem is solved.

8BW is tricky. It comes partially from situational history. Why don't all armies put Bow behind Spears? Well they do as the Crusaders did v. LH/Cav Arab armies. If faced with certain types of opponents armies adapt - if not faced with they type of opponent they don't adapt methods unsuited to actual opponents. They have the capability just no incentive to use it.

We gave the "Retinue" ability (Side Support for Bow from Blades) to try and fix the HYW mess. The real solution is Shooters (though keeping the Retinue rule does encourage the interwoven Men at Arms/Longbow formations used by the English and copied by the French - eventually - so it may be worth keeping).

As I've suggested the Quick Fix band aid approach (so beloved of DBX) for 8BW is to give Shieldwall to 8BW (or Bw(X) for we old DBMers). While my previous rule for D3H2 has been to not vary from DBA (Phil) methods - I'm considering lighting up on this self-imposed edict and allowing for some fixes to DBA 3.0 methods. So I might consider putting this in as a band aid.

By the way the "Aux" solution is simple and already solved: treat them as Medium Foot (CF +3; MA: 2BW; Loose Order). Allow them to take "Swords" (+1 CF v. Foot;-1 CF v. Mounted). This will make them +4 against Roman "Blades" (+5). For Canne make the "Aux" Fast, so they Recoil on ties. You get lots of Recoiling few deaths and the Pursuing Romans grind forward into the trap. Nice simulation. The problem with "Aux" is that we call them "Aux" and try and cram all sorts of troops that don't belong into that category. This solves this and many other historical issues and is therefore the non-band aid approach.

TomT

The problem is that while the 8 bows gain a factor in hand to hand, the hoplites also get +1 for side support now. Otherwise it would be quite fun, hoplites at 4 versus Persians at 3.

Now it is usually 5-3. Still, in the bad old days, 8 figure bows were still only 2 against foot. So, the odds used to be 4-2 for the Greeks, which is a 1/4 chance of a quick kill. Now at 5-3 it is 1/6 chance of the quick kill. Don't have the rules in front of me but I don't think the hoplites will follow up will they? This means that retiring sparabara will get to shoot in the next phase. Not very realistic, they should probably not be able to fall back given that they have planted shields.

A better close shooting rule might be to let the Persians shoot before hand to hand combat in their phase.... Radically different.

Properly played the Persians should get two rounds of shooting at hoplites. For 3 Sparabara that is a 1/9 chance of a kill. I think the odds of a bow line of 6 killing a hoplite before it hits the line is about 50%. This gives at least one overlap then when the hoplites hit, which means a chance at a hard flank push back.....

With the Persians, win with your mounted. OR!!!!

Fight the hoplites in rough going. The hoplites lose their side support, but most importantly, they are going to have to roll impossibly high numbers on their pip dice to get their army into contact in a line.

MG

If you give Sparabara side support you may want allow Spears to provide and receive side support for Sparabara as well. Otherwise the Medizing Hoplites (I'm looking at you Thebes!) are significantly weakened as only one element is available.

Cheers

Jim

Those about to try giving 8BW Shieldwall as pseudo Spears please report back as we have not playtested this concept (just conceived it).

Close range shooting is knotty. If deployed behind a line of Spears they would have to shoot overhead in any case. Close range does not help overhead shooting and can make it more difficult. Medieval archers shooting from front rank and willing to fight hand to hand if enemy closed are a different fish.

I thought that giving a +1 for shooting at targets in TZ but retaining priority restriction was the answer but settled for medieval archers getting a +3 v. Foot as simpler.

TomT