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Post by jim1973 on Apr 26, 2018 8:29:07 GMT
Has anybody tried out these skirmish rules from Phil? I was initially luke warm but now with DBA 3 I've re-read them and appreciate the subtleties intended. (My "Barkerese" has obviously improved). Planning on giving them a try and thinking about adapting the distances to allow for 15mm figures on my DBA boards using the same terrain. Could be a good way to use the extra figures in the lead pile. They are still available free from Phil's website (http://www.wrg.me.uk/PHIL/DBV%202003.htm) but you can get a bound copy from Lulu. I'm not sure of any differences and I don't think they are a finished product but like HFG, put out there for the community. I just cut and pasted the website rules onto Word and formatted the document, whilst I wait for Lulu. There is one glaring error under demoralisation, where the trigger point in terms of soldiers lost is omitted. Maybe that is corrected o the printed copy?
Cheers
Jim
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Post by bob on Apr 26, 2018 18:11:27 GMT
Our group tried playing them a couple of times but had trouble getting them work. I don’t remember all the details now, as this was 10 years ago. One thing I remember being troublesome was a threat zone (As we call it now) being some ungodly distance long. I think the light horse had a TZ equal to its move distance. This made it very difficult for troops to move around the table. Maybe if you’re studying them you can figure out what our problem was.
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 26, 2018 23:11:43 GMT
You are correct Bob. LH has a move of 20p (20cm). Troops cannot cross the front of enemy unless moving into contact within the enemy's move distance. This is on a recommended board size of 120cm. Is that so unreasonable given it is modelling a 1:1 situation (1 pace = 1cm)? I am no horseman but they seem to cover ground quite quickly when on the move! I don't think they'd be static that close to the enemy. Just trying to imagine the scenario in my mind's eye. Anyway, I made some top down markers from the Junior General webpage to try it out over the weekend.
Jim
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Post by goragrad on Apr 26, 2018 23:46:39 GMT
I have had these rules bookmarked, but have yet to try them.
Need to dig up my 25s.
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Post by Cromwell on Apr 27, 2018 7:34:01 GMT
You are correct Bob. LH has a move of 20p (20cm). Troops cannot cross the front of enemy unless moving into contact within the enemy's move distance. This is on a recommended board size of 120cm. Is that so unreasonable given it is modelling a 1:1 situation (1 pace = 1cm)? I am no horseman but they seem to cover ground quite quickly when on the move! I don't think they'd be static that close to the enemy. Just trying to imagine the scenario in my mind's eye. Anyway, I made some top down markers from the Junior General webpage to try it out over the weekend. Jim With regards to your comments on horse movement. I am a horseman (My Father ran a riding stables and I was an instructor and groom). Horses can cover ground very quickly. However the problem can come with turning. The larger the horse the more difficult it is for it to turn at speed. It all has to do with the "Leading leg". When a horse canters (or gallops) as it starts off it leads with one of it's front legs, usually the right or offside leg, as horses like us tend to be predominantly right handed. This means when galloping the horses right front leg goes forward first on each stride. This means it is easier for the horse to turn to the right at speed. If he tries to turn sharp left his leading right front leg could cross the left front leg causing a stumble or worse. In nature a horse will naturally change its leading leg in mid stride to enable it to make swifter direction changes, however when being ridden the animal has no way of knowing where its rider will wish to go, so it relies on the rider to tell it when to change leading leg, this requires a well trained horse and well trained rider. It is accomplished by pressure from the riders calves, to change leading leg from right to left apply right leg pressure just behind the saddle girth and left leg pressure just in front. This can also be done at the start of the gallop to get the horse to lead off with the riders chosen leg. It also has to be remembered that the faster a horse travels the further up the horses neck towards his ears his centre of gravity travels. A Jockey rises well forward at the gallop to position himself over the centre of gravity and thereby helping keep the animal balanced. These actions are now included in modern dressage, in fact almost all elements in modern dressage derive from combat manoeuvres employed by well trained horsemen in battle. Not sure this helps in a wargame setting but hopefully interesting all the same.
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 27, 2018 9:09:45 GMT
Thank you for your insight. I think it highlights Phil's intention with his rule. Namely, that passing too close to the front of an enemy horsemen puts you at risk of sudden attack. This may very well have been common knowledge to our historical predecessors. From what I've read online, it seems as though Phil was no slouch on a horse and no doubt he used this experience in developing his rules.
Jim
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Post by Cromwell on Apr 28, 2018 7:04:54 GMT
I had read somewhere that Phil was no mean horseman. I may be open to correction but I have a feeling he competed in eventing.
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Post by martin on Apr 28, 2018 8:32:19 GMT
I think you're right....he knew his equestrianism, and the ins and outs of horses, so to speak. In the Armies and Enemies books he frequently refers to different horse breeds and horse colouring. Martin
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Post by timurilank on Apr 28, 2018 9:10:10 GMT
Sue is also an accomplished Amazon as I had the good fortune to ride with them during a weeklong equestrian vacation in Dartmoor. This was during the summer of 1981 or 2, but I do not recall ever seeing the sun (cloudy) which was fine as we spent many hours in the saddle crossing the national park.
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 28, 2018 10:02:28 GMT
Well that settles it! I'm certainly not going to question the Barkers about what a rider can or cannot manage over a 20m distance. Now to the board for a playtest!
Jim
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Post by Cromwell on Apr 29, 2018 8:27:52 GMT
Sue is also an accomplished Amazon as I had the good fortune to ride with them during a weeklong equestrian vacation in Dartmoor. This was during the summer of 1981 or 2, but I do not recall ever seeing the sun (cloudy) which was fine as we spent many hours in the saddle crossing the national park. I have spent many a summer on Dartmoor. Although infrequently I have seen the sun there, shade is few and far between! My holidays were walking ones so no horses to be bothered by the heat. I seem to remember doing an escape and evasion exercise there when I was in the RAF, and it rained hard incessantly. We all came to the conclusion that capture by the enemy was by far preferable than escaping to be drowned by the Devon weather! As I recall we were supposed to be evading a bunch of Territorial Army lads. In fact we trudged about for hours trying to find them so we could get "captured" get inside and get a cup of tea!
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dmg
Munifex
Posts: 24
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Post by dmg on Jun 12, 2019 11:40:10 GMT
I've just discovered these DBV rules in the past few days, and am planning on a few games with my son.
Funnily enough, I was looking around for a 'simple, fast play' set of skirmish rules, and was mulling over converting DBA myself to a skirmish version. Imagine my shock, to discover Phil's ruleset, around since 1991! I've printed off the online set, and ordered a copy from lulu for good measure.
In answer to Phil's original question about demoralisation, and the trigger point, There's the following line: "A sub-unit reduced to or deprived of its leader or force commander by members being slain, disabled or leaving the table is demoralised." I originally thought this was missing a word or two regarding number of troops lost, but I now understand it as "If a sub-unit loses everyone except it's leader or force commander it is demoralised. And if a sub unit loses it's leader or force commander, it is demoralised.
I'm still just picking my way through it though, but it looks nice and playable. There seems to be very little in the way of house rules out there for it though. I realise it is 'unfinished', but extrapolating what the rules for chariots and elephants were going to be would be good. And my son wants to try it for a WWII or Fortnite style scenario. Shooters will be simple enough to translate, but machine gun emplacements and grenades are going to require a bit of mulling over...
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Post by grendelbert on Jul 24, 2019 18:42:42 GMT
I got very intrigued by DBV about 10 years ago. I played a few games and have intended ever since to get more into it. I had about 20+ figures painted an mounted for it and many more in the works. However, being a solo effort, I didn't really have to the drive to do more with all the competition from other projects.
I copied the rules off the website and formatted them in Adobe InDesign. I made a few changes, such as making blade/spear/foot knights move at 8p, rather than 6p. I thought it odd to have a measuring stick marked out in 4p increments and then a need to use 1 1/2 of them. I also went with 25mm wide for the basing, rather than 20mm. Today's minis are just bigger...
There are some unfinished aspects to the rules, such as elephants and chariots. Assuming PB never gets around to fleshing those out, you'd need to work out some house rules to cover them. One issue for them is that the system is a lot like DBA/DBM in that the frontage of the bases should be the same. With single models on a stand it's kind of impossible to have the foot frontage match the frontage of an elephant or chariot.
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Post by vtsaogames on Jul 25, 2019 17:01:27 GMT
As I recall we were supposed to be evading a bunch of Territorial Army lads. In fact we trudged about for hours trying to find them so we could get "captured" get inside and get a cup of tea!
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