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Post by martin on Apr 21, 2018 8:46:23 GMT
Forgive me if this is not a well considered post. 1. Regarding Bd(F) vs Kn as Spizicles mentions when dice don't roll your way Kn are likely to run you over. True but the issue here (besides bad dice hurting) is that exactly the same can be said for Bd(O) - ie Bd(F) are as good vs Kn as Bd(O) which is historically inaccurate I would say. . B. I don't have lists/rules to hand, but doesn't this go against the list writers' classification of (?) MIR Palestinian Clubmen as 3Bd (/BdF)? Their main role was to counter cataphracts, so "quick kill on a draw" (excuse the phrase, Bob!) is definitely 'right' for them, specifically, and arguably more so than for their 4Bd legionary colleagues........I see them as getting in amongst the enemy Kn, rather then forming a solid front to repel them. Martin |
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Post by timurilank on Apr 21, 2018 9:08:33 GMT
Martin,
That was my same response, but the Clubmen are now Lanciarii, also 3Bd for the Middle Imperial Roman.
Nonetheless, German club wielding symmachiari had a similar success at the Milvian Bridge.
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Post by paddy649 on Apr 21, 2018 10:09:20 GMT
I'm against the change if for no other reason to not fracture any more people from playing DBA 3.0. Very good point, which I agree with. Nevertheless, discussing these things as house rules or scenario rules can't hurt. x3 |
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Post by barritus on Apr 22, 2018 2:15:25 GMT
I don't have lists/rules to hand, but doesn't this go against the list writers' classification of (?) MIR Palestinian Clubmen as 3Bd (/BdF)? Their main role was to counter cataphracts, so "quick kill on a draw" (excuse the phrase, Bob!) is definitely 'right' for them, specifically, and arguably more so than for their 4Bd legionary colleagues........I see them as getting in amongst the enemy Kn, rather then forming a solid front to repel them. MartinRegarding the Palestinians I'd be rather chary, for one thing this smacks of novelty which Roman historians amongst others liked to give their readers. But presuming that Zosimus has recorded the event correctly we should note that he states that the Palestinians were armed with clubs and staves in addition to other weapons - so possibly not all are armed with the said clubs etc. More importantly though he notes that that the Roman foot wheeled about and attacked the cataphracts whilst they were scattered and out of order (from pursuing the roman cavalry). This sounds like a flank rear attack on a scattered force - not a frontal combat of clubmen (or Roman infantry for that matter - its unlikely the Palestinians were by themselves) vs cataphracts. Finally we should understand that there is no evidence given that the Palestinians were in any sort of open order so the Fast appellation is on very shaky ground.cheersB. |
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Post by timurilank on Apr 22, 2018 8:30:07 GMT
I don't have lists/rules to hand, but doesn't this go against the list writers' classification of (?) MIR Palestinian Clubmen as 3Bd (/BdF)? Their main role was to counter cataphracts, so "quick kill on a draw" (excuse the phrase, Bob!) is definitely 'right' for them, specifically, and arguably more so than for their 4Bd legionary colleagues........I see them as getting in amongst the enemy Kn, rather then forming a solid front to repel them. MartinRegarding the Palestinians I'd be rather chary, for one thing this smacks of novelty which Roman historians amongst others liked to give their readers. But presuming that Zosimus has recorded the event correctly we should note that he states that the Palestinians were armed with clubs and staves in addition to other weapons - so possibly not all are armed with the said clubs etc. More importantly though he notes that that the Roman foot wheeled about and attacked the cataphracts whilst they were scattered and out of order (from pursuing the roman cavalry). This sounds like a flank rear attack on a scattered force - not a frontal combat of clubmen (or Roman infantry for that matter - its unlikely the Palestinians were by themselves) vs cataphracts. Finally we should understand that there is no evidence given that the Palestinians were in any sort of open order so the Fast appellation is on very shaky ground.cheersB. Club armed Symmachiarii are depicted on Trajan’s column, so its use would be known. As a former horse owner it is not difficult to imagine a ‘stave’ crashing down on the muzzle of a horse would unsettle the rider’s balance. A second Palestinian armed with ‘club’ would damage the rider’s knee cap enough for him to lose control and fall off his mount. A rider-less horse would seek flight creating disorder to the ranks behind and a good number of similar events would precipitate a general flight of the cataphract unit. The Battle of ‘Emisa’ as described by Zosimus does have Roman Foot wheeling about and together with the Palestinians attacked the Palmyran cataphract while they were ‘scattered and out of order’. |
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