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Post by twrnz on Jul 14, 2016 10:12:39 GMT
This evening we had a brief discussion on the strengths and weakness of 6Cv. Are the benefits of an additional +1 in melee combat against foot worth the cost of the potential loss of such an element?
What are your thoughts?
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Post by timurilank on Jul 14, 2016 10:46:14 GMT
This evening we had a brief discussion on the strengths and weakness of 6Cv. Are the benefits of an additional +1 in melee combat against foot worth the cost of the potential loss of such an element? What are your thoughts? I avoid selecting armies with double element cavalry or knights. If one is not cognizant of the space* behind such an element in melee, recoiling can be a problem. Further, fleeing from pike or spear under similar circumstances would make them an easy target on an opponent’s bound. * Insufficient space can result from close proximity to bad terrain, board edge or a reserve line positioned too close to the combat.
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Post by Haardrada on Jul 14, 2016 18:53:47 GMT
The 6 Cav bonus of +1 versus infantry alters the baseline of Cav versus foot, especially against Aux,Bw and Bd. Versus Aux and Bd the 6 Cav start with a slight advantage and are less likely to be pushed back by Solid foot on a draw (If anyone knows the change in statics?).Combat against Bw can still be as risky, but at least starts at evens with the tantalizing QK of the Bw if they loose. The disadvantages start with the loss of the 1st 6 Cav element counting as 2 elements lost.Another disadvantage for all deep depth elements including 6 Cav is room to manouvre in combat as push-backs and follow up movement can restrict turning these elements. As already said, proximity to terrain and base edges can restrict their movement.
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Post by twrnz on Jul 15, 2016 0:59:09 GMT
I tend to think of cavalry being on the flanks where the +1 against foot isn't as useful, especially in armies such as Post-Mongel Samurai where mounted are limited in number to begin with.
However, last night one player expressed his view that the 6Cv had considerable advantage over 6Kn especially against enemy Bd. In addition 6Cv have an increased move compared to 6Kn and that they don't follow up in combat. Perhaps in historical situations the Samurai 6Cv are even more useful as mostly they are fighting only other Japanese armies.
It is one of the fascinating parts of DBA. With only 12 elements, and reasonably defined lists, these small choices are rather interesting.
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Post by martin on Jul 15, 2016 8:36:19 GMT
One disadvantage- recently my 6Cv destroyed an opponent, but was unable to close the door on either of the adjacent enemy elements as there was not enough room to fit a 60mm deep 6Cv into the 40mm gap. M
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jul 20, 2016 12:47:10 GMT
I'm going to need to build the 6Cv elements for my Samurai just to try this out.
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Post by twrnz on Jul 20, 2016 23:19:13 GMT
I think they will look good as well Tony. The mix of foot and mounted adds to the visuals.
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Post by mthrguth on Jul 21, 2016 0:05:59 GMT
I was going to try my Byzantines at Historicon. Both the early and the Maurikians have lots of 6 cav figures. That being said, Tony won one event with Medieval Germans, I believe with 6 figure knights. 6 figure knights are excellent because they actually kill foot just by beating them, the despised term being 'quick kill.' Cavalry have to work their way down the line winning rolls until they can get a 6-2 or 6-1 by getting double overlaps. The 6 figure knight with a general, on the other hand, is a nightmare for blades.
As I have discussed, it is very easy to get bad going in 3 out of 4 sectors. This could leave a 6 figure cavalry army with little room to deploy.
In games against friends, I have lost a 6 figure cav on a bad dice throw. It counts as 2 elements lost, so now you are in trouble
Samurai are more able to exploit the extra combat factor because they have aggression zero, and the early Samurai have lots of Aux as well. Don't know which is stronger in an open environment.
The Byzantines were for a theme event. I would have gone with the Maurikians over Justinians to try to win terrain, and to have some spears to go against knights.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jul 21, 2016 11:02:40 GMT
We missed you at Historicon, Mike.
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gus
Munifex
Posts: 22
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Post by gus on Jul 22, 2016 7:42:07 GMT
I like 6Cv, I like 6Cv generals even more - speed and survivability with additional punch, yes please 
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Post by twrnz on Jul 22, 2016 21:37:31 GMT
I like 6Cv, I like 6Cv generals even more - speed and survivability with additional punch, yes please Sounds like you could almost be convinced to build an army just to try 6Cv Gus! I must sort out my Renaissance Japanese and give 6Cv a go.
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Post by Haardrada on Jul 23, 2016 6:41:59 GMT
Taking a closer look at the rules there are further advantages for 6Cav.,especially when facing Pk or Sp elements in combat.Unlike 6Kn the 6Cav cannot be killed by Pk or Sp and the Pk do not receive the +1 for rear support. Combat for 6Cav vs Pk starts at +4/+3 and an even +4/+4 vs Sp.
Also 6Cav are not QK by Sch Chariots when 6Kn are.
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Post by twrnz on Jul 23, 2016 7:15:34 GMT
However, 6Cv or any cavalry for that matter do not "quick kill" Pk or Sp. That to me is the advantage of the Kn. you can try and force a result.
Of course it can also go very wrong and my 3Kn often pursue getting themselves into trouble, 6Kn will be the same. Then there is the situation of a "equal" result. This last is one of the advantages of Cv. So many choices...
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Post by Haardrada on Jul 23, 2016 13:04:10 GMT
However, 6Cv or any cavalry for that matter do not "quick kill" Pk or Sp. That to me is the advantage of the Kn. you can try and force a result. Of course it can also go very wrong and my 3Kn often pursue getting themselves into trouble, 6Kn will be the same. Then there is the situation of a "equal" result. This last is one of the advantages of Cv. So many choices... I too prefer the 6Kn but the 6Cav do have a greater survivability and greater speed. I have come to tbe conclusion in Dba 3.0 that its better to have a combination of attacking elements that compliment each other rather than a line of the same elements.A mix of supported Pk with 6Kn and Bd in my League of Constance army has proved very successful against Historical opponents.
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Post by timurilank on Jul 23, 2016 13:59:02 GMT
Combinations of elements indeed work well together.
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