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Post by phippsy on Jan 3, 2018 13:47:04 GMT
Dear All,
If there are two foot elements like Sp on 15mm deep bases or 3Ax on 20mm deep bases, and are in column, and they lose a frontal combat and have an enemy element with front edge contacts on one flank of both elements, then both are destroyed on a recoil for example.
Does the same happen if for example the two elements in column are Cv? In this case the frontal element is covered by it’s full 30mm flank side, but the element behind has only 10mm covered partially of it’s 30mm. In this case is the rear Cv element also destroyed on a recoil?
Thanks Peter
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Post by timurilank on Jan 3, 2018 14:36:13 GMT
Dear All, If there are two foot elements like Sp on 15mm deep bases or 3Ax on 20mm deep bases, and are in column, and they lose a frontal combat and have an enemy element with front edge contacts on one flank of both elements, then both are destroyed on a recoil for example. Does the same happen if for example the two elements in column are Cv? In this case the frontal element is covered by it’s full 30mm flank side, but the element behind has only 10mm covered partially of it’s 30mm. In this case is the rear Cv element also destroyed on a recoil? Thanks Peter Peter,
Recoiling or Being Pushed Back, last paragraph, page 12
A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge, friends it cannot pass through or push back, enemy or a city, fort or camp ends its move there. An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead.
As you will note, an element recoiling or pushed back and already in ‘contact’ is destroyed. Even the minimal corner edge would suffice, so too, 10 mm of side edge.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jan 3, 2018 14:45:07 GMT
Keep in mind only the front element dies, not both as the second unit if not providing support is not in "combat."
Neither Sp nor Cv can provide rear support.
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Post by timurilank on Jan 3, 2018 15:07:05 GMT
Tony, Thanks for making that distinction. I am still feeling the effects of the weekend. |
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Post by Simon on Jan 3, 2018 15:30:41 GMT
I think Peter was specifically asking about a column being contacted to the side by an enemy front edge while the lead element is also in combat to its front - and loses that combat.
An element in a column and with an enemy in front edge contact to its flank is destroyed if the leading element is destroyed. i do not believe it is only killed if it is providing rear support:
"An element that has an enemy in front edge contact to its side or rear edge is destroyed by recoiling, being pushed back, fleeing or being in a column whose front element is destroyed." P12 first paragraph and figures 20a and 20b.
Regards,
Simon
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jan 3, 2018 15:37:46 GMT
I think Peter was specifically asking about a column being contacted to the side by an enemy front edge while the lead element is also in combat to its front - and loses that combat. An element in a column and with an enemy in front edge contact to its flank is destroyed if the leading element is destroyed. i do not believe it is only killed if it is providing rear support: "An element that has an enemy in front edge contact to its side or rear edge is destroyed by recoiling, being pushed back, fleeing or being in a column whose front element is destroyed." P12 first paragraph and figures 20a and 20b. Regards, Simon You are correct, Simon. In the future, I should refrain from answering questions that do not have an illustration provided as even the simplest situation can get confusing.  |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jan 3, 2018 15:45:13 GMT
Tony, Thanks for making that distinction. I am still feeling the effects of the weekend. It means you had a good weekend.  |
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Post by Simon on Jan 3, 2018 15:52:18 GMT
Tony, Thanks for making that distinction. I am still feeling the effects of the weekend. It means you had a good weekend. Unfortunately I am now on dry January!! Only 28 days to go. Ouch! Simon |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jan 3, 2018 15:54:58 GMT
It means you had a good weekend. Unfortunately I am now on dry January!! Only 28 days to go. Ouch! Simon Dry January? Is that even a thing? I rarely drink so I'm just chugging along like normal.  |
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Post by bluestone28 on Jan 3, 2018 18:27:19 GMT
and so, what about a column of 2 LH or 2 Wb or 2 Pk just with an ennemy on the front and with a recoil result? (no enemy on the flank or back)
in french rules, it was written that an element who bring support (back or lateral support) will recoil if the front element must recoil, flee or is destroyed.
"Un élément qui a ajouté un modificateur de soutien arrière ou latéral recule si l'élément soutenu recule, fuit ou est détruit"
is it the same in English rules?
Also, does it mean that a lateral support element must recoil too, if main one recoil?
so if there is 3 SP units, with 2 supporting the center one, the 3 recoil if the combat result is a recoil ? (of course if the recoil is possible)
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Post by phippsy on Jan 3, 2018 19:45:47 GMT
Thanks for response - appreciated. It was the column scenario that I was trying to refer to. Illustrations do assist. Believe query has been answered.
Dry January here too....
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Post by Simon on Jan 3, 2018 20:09:56 GMT
and so, what about a column of 2 LH or 2 Wb or 2 Pk just with an ennemy on the front and with a recoil result? (no enemy on the flank or back) They are just pushed back.
in french rules, it was written that an element who bring support (back or lateral support) will recoil if the front element must recoil, flee or is destroyed. "Un élément qui a ajouté un modificateur de soutien arrière ou latéral recule si l'élément soutenu recule, fuit ou est détruit" is it the same in English rules? Also, does it mean that a lateral support element must recoil too, if main one recoil? so if there is 3 SP units, with 2 supporting the center one, the 3 recoil if the combat result is a recoil ? (of course if the recoil is possible) No they do not recoil.Does Figure 19c help? I think the rule you are quoting in French is about when a friendly element is in legal frontal contact with either the flank or rear of the enemy and so gives a -1 negative modifier to the enemy. If the friendly element fighting in front to front contact recoils, flees or is destroyed, then the element to the rear or side of the enemy must recoil. I hope this helps. Simon |
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Post by bluestone28 on Jan 3, 2018 22:23:50 GMT
the section of the rules is something like "Combat Result"
just after the section "Shoot and Melee Result " tactical modifiers board :
the whole section said : (sorry quick trad, as i've got only the french rules)
an element with a total inferior to his opponent must immediatly do a imposed move depending of its type and opponent type in melee or targeted.
Elements who shoot without reciprocal shooting ignore unfavorable result.
An element who added a back support or lateral support modifier will recoil if the supported element must recoil, flee or is destroyed.
so what is the exact sentence of the rules in english?
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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 3, 2018 23:22:36 GMT
the section of the rules is something like "Combat Result" just after the section "Shoot and Melee Result " tactical modifiers board : the whole section said : (sorry quick trad, as i've got only the french rules) an element with a total inferior to his opponent must immediatly do a imposed move depending of its type and opponent type in melee or targeted. Elements who shoot without reciprocal shooting ignore unfavorable result. An element who added a back support or lateral support modifier will recoil if the supported element must recoil, flee or is destroyed. so what is the exact sentence of the rules in english? "An element whose total is equal to or less than that of its opponent may need to make an immediate outcome move, which depends on its own type and that of the opponent in close combat with its front edge or shooting at it. An element shooting without being shot at disregards an unfavourable outcome. A supporting element in close combat against an enemy element’s flank or rear recoils if the friendly element in combat with that enemy’s front recoils, flees or is destroyed." Not rear support...but rather supports a close combat by contacting the enemy's flank and/or rear. Joe Collins |
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 4, 2018 1:26:49 GMT
Well-stated, Joe. Not rear support. Not flank support. Just fighting as a tactical factor and a quick-kill provider. In most cases, the rules are just DBA but cleaned up. The rules however are orders of magnitude better written than the 2.x series, so they are much denser, and richer than before. This is to help counter rules lawyers like Stevie, and me before my "retirement"...  |
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