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Post by goragrad on Dec 16, 2017 7:15:28 GMT
As noted in a previous post I have made a fort for use in games.
Was wondering what the thoughts were on which elements work best as defenders.
Is it worth using missile troops to create a harassing zone or better to put in high combat factor troops to make a tougher nut to crack?
On the small board an ART element could cover two thirds of it albeit with only a distant combat factor of 2. A BW or CB would cover a bit over half of it with a base 4 against mounted.
On the other hand a BD element would have a threat zone over nearly half of the board and have a combined factor of 9 on defense.
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Post by twrnz on Dec 16, 2017 10:16:23 GMT
I have used fortified towns often over the years and played a number of games against these and forts. Each has strengths and weaknesses. It is fascinating working out what is a strength and what is a weakness. My suggestion is ask yourself what your opponent is likely to do to counter your position and how this supports your plan, if indeed it does.
In a recent convention game my opponent placed a large fort. He clearly felt it significantly aided his position. My opinion was it was a significant handicap as it restricted his deployment area. My plan factored in this restricted deployment zone.
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Post by goragrad on Dec 20, 2017 8:32:03 GMT
Appreciate the response.
Was hoping for some specifics as I have limited opportunity to play at my current location and driving 350 miles to a tournament only to do something boneheaded and go down 4-1 in a couple of phases is somewhat less than satisfying.
At any rate a good chance I will be back at the club before Genghiscon in February so may get a chance to experiment.
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Post by macbeth on Dec 20, 2017 22:42:19 GMT
One thing to remember is that in the attack and defence of a city, fort or camp ALL elements use their Foot Factor to fight P10. para 9 "Troops assaulting or defending thse use their combat factor against foot and do not count overlaps, or flank or rear support" So missile troops need beware that though they may shoot at +4 against the horsemen, they will fight them at +2 if they attack. Also whilst there are no overlaps, an attack on a city, fort or camp by multiple elements can bring down the defenders fighting value - p11 para 3 "-1 ....... or for each of up to 2 additional enemy elements also still assaulting a city, fort or camp" If you put Art or Shooters in fort and try to dominate the landscape, you can be brought down by a mass attack from even LH - as each of them fights at +2 whilst the defenders are at +2 with a defence bonus of +3 dragged down by -2 for the additional attackers. So the first fight is only +3 vs +2 and all the attackers have to do is win, whilst against Art they cannot be killed.  On the other hand if you stack your fort with Bd then your opponent will most likely leave it alone because it is well nigh impregnable to anything but a combined Bd assault. But the defenders can only exit via the single gate. I would advise that if you use a fort - put Fast Bd inside so that they can sally out if the fort is ignored and reach the fray in a reasonable timeframe. Cheers |
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Post by twrnz on Dec 22, 2017 0:18:09 GMT
Appreciate the response. Was hoping for some specifics as I have limited opportunity to play at my current location and driving 350 miles to a tournament only to do something boneheaded and go down 4-1 in a couple of phases is somewhat less than satisfying. Sorry, the point I was trying to make is there is no simple formula in my view. A blade as a garrison is unlikely to be attacked, while archers who will likely be attacked by infantry heavy forces. With cities you can have two gates. I occasionally will retreat out of one at the last moment. An attack on the city will then see the attacker engage the denizens and potentially be drawn in an become vulnerable while sacking. Forts are different of course. Then you have hamlets which can’t be garrisoned like the above have different impacts to combat resolutions. |
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Post by goragrad on Dec 22, 2017 7:06:45 GMT
Good points Macbeth, although the city/fort bonus I see is +4. So there would be a +4 vs a +2 (unless the LH had rear support, but that would prevent the flee). And the ART should get in at least 1 distant shot with the same numbers giving a 1 in 4 chance of a kill and almost a 1 in 2 chance for at least a recoil with only a 1 in 6 chance of a recoil death. And ART die on recoils regardless.
Of course for my Han and Three Kingdoms I built the 4BD option to be able to support the solid bows...
Twrnz - also a good point. As to my response, just thought I'd state my reason for wanting to tap into whatever experience some of the grognards might have. The videos are very helpful but forts are not going to be common - have only seen them twice at the club in DBM matches.
I'll have to get my nephew into a couple of games...
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Post by paulhannah on Dec 22, 2017 14:19:33 GMT
One thing to remember is that in the attack and defense of a city, fort or camp ALL elements use their Foot Factor to fight P10. para 9 "Troops assaulting or defending these use their combat factor against foot and do not count overlaps, or flank or rear support."I had totally missed these changes from DBA-2, Macbeth. Thank you kindly for educating me on them. As with so much else that's new in "Purple", I like these subtle changes. Eric & I haven't used Forts very often, and so we haven't grasped their tactical advantages (although we enjoy their super-cool visuals). Is it generally better to place them along a base-edge, or pushed out as much as possible towards the board's center? Are there advantages to combining them with Roads? |
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Post by macbeth on Jan 1, 2018 21:01:58 GMT
Paul, I don't often use forts myself - and after I thought to used an Art garrisoned fort in a Sung vs Mongol game (where the Mongol LH overran my fort) it may be a long time before I do so again. As far as it goes though I would suggest using the fort to dominate the landscape - if you put the fort at the back you have either committed to fighting on the defensive or have left one element and a defensive position out of the fight. The big trick with combining BUAs and Roads is that you can cut down the attacker's choice of ends to a single option  Cheers |
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Post by twrnz on Jan 1, 2018 21:08:45 GMT
I would add that roads are one of the more popular terrain items in these parts due to them limiting the attackers choice of edges. This applies when using BUAs or equally when not.
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Post by arnopov on Jan 2, 2018 12:52:10 GMT
The big trick with combining BUAs and Roads is that you can cut down the attacker's choice of ends to a single option How does that work? I have used the fort+Rd option with the Tamils in order to close one flank. I would much prefer a waterway, but not available to tropical. The positioning of the gate is quite important to do some in game garrison swap. Ciao Arnopov |
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Post by macbeth on Jan 2, 2018 21:58:30 GMT
The big trick with combining BUAs and Roads is that you can cut down the attacker's choice of ends to a single option How does that work? I have used the fort+Rd option with the Tamils in order to close one flank. I would much prefer a waterway, but not available to tropical. The positioning of the gate is quite important to do some in game garrison swap. Ciao Arnopov D'oh I went back (in Smug Mode) to cite my references only to discover that I read "or" instead of "on" in p6, para 11, line 5 "It can end at a BUA on a waterway edge"So who is feeling like the fool now Even funnier - I haven't used this trick myself (at least in a very long time) but at MOAB in October I did show a new player how they could use this (with the misinterpreted word) to force my deployment to one side. The sequence was 1) Place the BUA (they used an Edifice) 2) connect a road to the Edifice from one edge 3) Lay the remaining terrain knowing that I HAD to deploy on the edge where the road started. I know that in the early days of DBA3 playtesting it was ruled that a road going from opposite the Waterway to a BUA on the edge is not a way to stop the attacker from deploying but I do not remember which rule took precedence a) Deploy on the edge that the road starts b) Do not deploy opposite the Waterway. So suitably chastened and egg faced I slink back to my corner Cheers |
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