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Post by martin on Nov 13, 2017 11:29:27 GMT
  A query recently arose, which left me unsure of the meaning /interpretation of a certain rule relating to shooting. (Click pics to enlarge) Two elements are deep within a wood (or Oasis, Difficult Hill etc). After previous combat results, the front right corner of a Bw element (A) is exactly 1/2 basewidth or 20mm from the front left corner of eg enemy element Sp, and perpendicular to it. Is the Bw a) in range, and thus able to shoot, as it has only 20mm to the enemy corner , or b) prevented from shooting by the depth of terrain between its shooting edge and the opponent ? Answers on a postcard to............ Any help and references would be much appreciated. |
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Post by Simon on Nov 13, 2017 12:54:30 GMT
Hi Martin,
I have probably got this wrong but I have been playing it that neither of the uncrossed lines connecting the shooting edge to the target edge can be more than 20mm long - so in your example, the bow could not shoot.
Regards,
Simon
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Post by timurilank on Nov 13, 2017 13:55:48 GMT
I would also say no as the prerequisite for shooting within a wood is not present in your example.
Both the shooting edge and target edge are outside the ½ BW distance.
I would also say that shooting would not be possible if the archers were firing from the same position as the marker.
That would be the case if both were in open and clear terrain.
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Post by primuspilus on Nov 13, 2017 14:20:43 GMT
Help me out here. The target is clearly within the firing arc. Yes? Isn't range measured as the shortest distance between firing and target edges? In this case exactly 1/2 BW. So are we saying that the range on the uncrossed lines has to also be within (i.e. at or less than) 1/2 BW?
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Post by ronisan on Nov 13, 2017 16:20:07 GMT
Hello Martin,
the rules say: "A hill’s crest, a city or fort, or a ½ BW depth of difficult hills, woods, oasis, dunes, hamlet or edifice blocks shooting from and at an element base edge entirely beyond any of these."
So - in your example, there is ½ a BW depth of woods ... that means: No Shooting allowed.
Cheers,
Ronald.
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Post by lkmjbc on Nov 13, 2017 16:24:00 GMT
The shot here is allowed.
The enemy Spear is within arc...
The enemy Spear is within range...
The woods rule is found on page 10.
"A hill’s crest, a city or fort, or a ½ BW depth of difficult hills, woods, oasis, dunes, hamlet or edifice blocks shooting from
and at an element base edge entirely beyond any of these."
The corner if the enemy Sp is within 1/2 BW of the shooting edge of the Bow. The corner is one point defining the target edge. Therefore, the target's target edge is not entirely beyond 1/2 BW of woods.
It is by definition of the rules, "within"... just barely within... be still within.
"Entirely beyond" isn't hard defined in the rules, but I find it difficult to interpret any different way.
Please note that Phil also uses the same word pair to determine command distance over a hill. If any part of an element, even a corner, is over the hill crest then command distance is not reduced.
Joe Collins
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Post by Simon on Nov 13, 2017 16:28:34 GMT
Help me out here. The target is clearly within the firing arc. Yes? Isn't range measured as the shortest distance between firing and target edges? In this case exactly 1/2 BW. So are we saying that the range on the uncrossed lines has to also be within (i.e. at or less than) 1/2 BW? Ermm - embarrassed cough - I think you are right Primuspilus. On rereading the rules, I see have missed the point about shooting being blocked by 1/2 BW if the edge is ENTIRELY beyond the 1/2 BW of woods etc. In Martin's pic, one bit of the edge is at 1/2 BW so it is not entirely beyond 1/2 BW. I think! Simon |
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Post by ronisan on Nov 13, 2017 16:36:06 GMT
The shot here is allowed. The enemy Spear is within arc... The enemy Spear is within range... The woods rule is found on page 10. "A hill’s crest, a city or fort, or a ½ BW depth of difficult hills, woods, oasis, dunes, hamlet or edifice blocks shooting from and at an element base edge entirely beyond any of these." The corner if the enemy Sp is within 1/2 BW of the shooting edge of the Bow. The corner is one point defining the target edge. Therefore, the target's target edge is not entirely beyond 1/2 BW of woods. It is by definition of the rules, "within"... just barely within... be still within. "Entirely beyond" isn't hard defined in the rules, but I find it difficult to interpret any different way. Please note that Phil also uses the same word pair to determine command distance over a hill. If any part of an element, even a corner, is over the hill crest then command distance is not reduced. Joe Collins Hi folks, ok ... conviced  SHOOOOT! |
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Post by lkmjbc on Nov 13, 2017 17:13:40 GMT
Boom!
Err... ok... what sound do arrows make?
Twang!
That's better.
Joe Collins
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Post by martin on Nov 13, 2017 17:26:37 GMT
OK....thanks for all the replies. One interpretation (mine, as it happens) was that the far left corner of the shooting edge was shooting at a distance of 60mm or more through woods at its target, which seemed very much at variance with the previous DBA version in which shooting was totally verboten in woods.
I, and others, had been interpreting the rule as being that shooting was blocked by 1/2 BW of terrain if ANY of the shooting edge had to shoot through over 20mm of trees/houses/palm trees/temples etc.
(Like Simon's comment -"I have probably got this wrong but I have been playing it that neither of the uncrossed lines connecting the shooting edge to the target edge can be more than 20mm long - so in your example, the bow could not shoot").
Cheers
Martin
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Post by pawsbill on Nov 13, 2017 20:42:44 GMT
I would also say no as the prerequisite for shooting within a wood is not present in your example.
Both the shooting edge and target edge are outside the ½ BW distance.
I would also say that shooting would not be possible if the archers were firing from the same position as the marker.
That would be the case if both were in open and clear terrain.
And that is pretty much how I had assumed it was (and ruled as such) before, that the whole of the target edge had to be within 1/2 BW of part of the shooting edge. But when Martin alerted me to this thread I re-read the rules and spotted the "entirely beyond" clause.
So I agree with Joe Collins. If any of the target edge (including a corner) is at or closer than 1/2 BW of any of the shooting edge, then the shot is possible.
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Post by timurilank on Nov 13, 2017 22:37:54 GMT
I would also say no as the prerequisite for shooting within a wood is not present in your example.
Both the shooting edge and target edge are outside the ½ BW distance.
I would also say that shooting would not be possible if the archers were firing from the same position as the marker.
That would be the case if both were in open and clear terrain.
And that is pretty much how I had assumed it was (and ruled as such) before, that the whole of the target edge had to be within 1/2 BW of part of the shooting edge. But when Martin alerted me to this thread I re-read the rules and spotted the "entirely beyond" clause.
So I agree with Joe Collins. If any of the target edge (including a corner) is at or closer than 1/2 BW of any of the shooting edge, then the shot is possible.
I will make note of this. To be honest we have never encountered this kind of situation. Our archers are usually hunting mounted targets or disrupting infantry groups.
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Post by martin on Nov 17, 2017 11:17:16 GMT
Still doesn't ring true with me. Do we really think there would be effective shooting of ANY sort at the ranges we're considering while inside any blocking terrain? If you ever stood in a wood and threw a rock you'd be well aware that it don't go too far before a tree intervenes with its trajectory. Wouldn't recommend (or admit to) trying this in a hamlet 😶
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Post by Simon on Nov 17, 2017 12:50:56 GMT
Still doesn't ring true with me. Do we really think there would be effective shooting of ANY sort at the ranges we're considering while inside any blocking terrain? If you ever stood in a wood and threw a rock you'd be well aware that it don't go too far before a tree intervenes with its trajectory. Wouldn't recommend (or admit to) trying this in a hamlet 😶 ... or in a glasshouse! |
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Post by mellis1644 on Nov 17, 2017 14:55:24 GMT
Still doesn't ring true with me. Do we really think there would be effective shooting of ANY sort at the ranges we're considering while inside any blocking terrain? If you ever stood in a wood and threw a rock you'd be well aware that it don't go too far before a tree intervenes with its trajectory. Wouldn't recommend (or admit to) trying this in a hamlet 😶 ... or in a glasshouse!  It's a game mechanic - I tend to think of neither unit being of well formed ranks when in woods. That's the penalty for some troops come from while Aux,Wb and PS etc. are not impacted as they don't rely that strictly on formed bodies up anyways. So the archers get some ranged 'larger than skirmish' distant power in woods. I never had much of an issue with it in thinking this way. It helps that I think of woods not not deep virgin forest but broken tree clumps of trees and lightly wooded area's as it's around where armies are moving. Impactful but not wilderness. |
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