|
Post by crazycaptain560 on Sept 5, 2017 1:16:10 GMT
I want to say that all Sp elements in the II/5 (probably I/52 as well) lists should have pursuit against opposing Sp elements. The goal to punch through the opposing phalanx and the "wobbly" nature of the lines makes me think that in DBA they should pursue opposing Hoplites. The Book The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece seems to suggest that pushing forwards, to benefit or not, was part of the very nature of Phalanx warfare. Additionally, this would also make the battle more interesting at least in my mind. Any others with experience playing with these lists? Historically that is.
Does this ruin the Sp Flank rule? Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by felixs on Sept 5, 2017 9:57:53 GMT
Hanson's views on Greek warfare are quite interesting (if one leaves out the misguided generalizations that he derives from them in his stories of "Western Warfare").
I think the idea that you suggest might work. Would make Sp very warbandish, which could be fine. Really depends on what your vision of Greek warfare is. Another idea that comes to my mind: It might be interesting to class part of the Sp (the younger, inexperienced, more easily excited men) as having pursuit against other Sp. This would add to the dilemma even more. And being an Ancient Greek general should be about dilemma all the time.
It would, of course, ruin part of the Sp flank support rule. But that should not be a problem if both sides rely heavily on Sp and are thus equally affected.
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Sept 5, 2017 12:09:56 GMT
I always thought all HI should pursue. It certainly gives opportunities for HI to be the deciders of battle once committed. That said, it would make games very short, and in my view the hoplite-hoplite battle is already quite decisive with the flank support rule. At least the lines last a few bounds before one shatters.
But in accordance with the previous suggestion, I have always thought some hoplites could reasonably be classed as warband. These would be your impetuous impact players, but could also deal with bad and rough going more easily. They are also less able to withstand cavalry. This seems to align with what I have read of hoplite warfare.
By the way, we note that Greece is very mountainous. Strange that the hoplite was the weapon of choice....
|
|
|
Post by felixs on Sept 5, 2017 12:19:45 GMT
By the way, we note that Greece is very mountainous. Strange that the hoplite was the weapon of choice.... Not if you also take into account, that everything that was worth fighting for and could be threatened in war was in open terrain (cities, villages, fields). Hanson's point, that intensively agricultural cultures tend to produce heavy infantry and a tendency to seek decisive battles has a lot for it. But it is stupid to somehow limit this to "the West".
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Sept 5, 2017 12:40:20 GMT
Interestingly, the Peloponnesian Wars saw very few hoplite engagements at all, and the gradual decline of hoplites in favour of more flexible and lighter, faster troop types.
So ultimately the Greeks themselves came to realise that the traditional hoplite had to adapt to a faster moving and less traditional way of war. Iphicrates I believe was widely credited for having the courage to decouple the Greek nobility from the stultifying hoplite battle, and taking a fresh look at the "western way of war"..
|
|
|
Post by Haardrada on Sept 5, 2017 14:57:38 GMT
Most Greek Sp elements where classed as Irr.Sp back in the original DBM and had to persue foot who recoiled from them.Spartaites,Sacred Band etc.were classed as Reg.Sp so could hold formation.
|
|
|
Post by lkmjbc on Sept 5, 2017 16:48:15 GMT
We actually discussed this during the development period. Some of the fights between Hoplites were quite aggressive. The problem is that this cannot be spread across time periods or even Hoplites from various Greek city-states. There was some talk of categorizing some Hoplites as Blade. In the end we decided this was best left to special period house rules.
Joe Collins
|
|
|
Post by felixs on Sept 5, 2017 18:36:00 GMT
In the end we decided this was best left to special period house rules. Totally agree with that decision. In the scope of "normal" DBA (the meta perspective game, covering more than 4,000 years of warfare), hoplites should be Sp. They are, in fact, what Sp is based upon more or less. But, of course, in a macro perspective, diversity becomes much more important. I think that the 3.0 rules already did very well at introducing a lot of interesting quirks to the Greek lists. But if one wants to go into detail even more, introducing rules for pursuing Sp, or re-classing some hoplites as Bd, or even Wb seems a good idea.
|
|
|
Post by felixs on Sept 5, 2017 18:40:34 GMT
Interestingly, the Peloponnesian Wars saw very few hoplite engagements at all, and the gradual decline of hoplites in favour of more flexible and lighter, faster troop types. So ultimately the Greeks themselves came to realise that the traditional hoplite had to adapt to a faster moving and less traditional way of war. Iphicrates I believe was widely credited for having the courage to decouple the Greek nobility from the stultifying hoplite battle, and taking a fresh look at the "western way of war".. Yes, that is an important point too. As for the Peloponnesian Wars, Persian influence is also quite obvious.
|
|
|
Post by bob on Sept 5, 2017 18:49:35 GMT
big ditto to Joe. Good option for a house rule situation.
|
|
|
Post by crazycaptain560 on Sept 6, 2017 1:17:43 GMT
All makes much sense. Very interesting discussion. I was opting for a house rule this whole time, but I did not word that correctly.
|
|
|
Post by crazycaptain560 on Sept 6, 2017 1:21:01 GMT
I always thought all HI should pursue. It certainly gives opportunities for HI to be the deciders of battle once committed. That said, it would make games very short, and in my view the hoplite-hoplite battle is already quite decisive with the flank support rule. At least the lines last a few bounds before one shatters. But in accordance with the previous suggestion, I have always thought some hoplites could reasonably be classed as warband. These would be your impetuous impact players, but could also deal with bad and rough going more easily. They are also less able to withstand cavalry. This seems to align with what I have read of hoplite warfare. By the way, we note that Greece is very mountainous. Strange that the hoplite was the weapon of choice.... It seems, from my readings, that they seemed to have always fought on open fields. There is a discussion of Honor involved as well. Pride, in the form of "look we are all here on your property where you grow and work" so the citizen hoplite had a reason to fight in the Phalanx. Just had a fascinating discussion about all of this in one of my survey courses on Ancient Warfare. I must say, this class is making me want to Wargame the period and I assume this trend will continue as we advance....
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Sept 6, 2017 1:44:51 GMT
I'd be interested in how people would house rule Spartiates. Taking the situation of a line of spears facing off with side support, would you: a) Give the Spartiates a +1 (Destroy other Greeks on 6-1 and this amplifies with overlaps) b) Give the other Greeks a -1 (Destroyed by Spartiates on 1-5 and 1-6 again amplified by overlaps) c) Have the other Greeks destroyed if simply beaten by Spartiates d) Any other ideas?
Jim
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Sept 6, 2017 3:44:30 GMT
I'd be interested in how people would house rule Spartiates. Taking the situation of a line of spears facing off with side support, would you: a) Give the Spartiates a +1 (Destroy other Greeks on 6-1 and this amplifies with overlaps) b) Give the other Greeks a -1 (Destroyed by Spartiates on 1-5 and 1-6 again amplified by overlaps) c) Have the other Greeks destroyed if simply beaten by Spartiates d) Any other ideas? Jim I'd do nothing. Seriously. Whilst being touted as supermen, the actual battlefield performance of the Spartan hoplite reminds me of the French Foreign Legion: long on reputation, a bit short on actual, documented decisive victories. Sphacteria. That is what burst my Sparta bubble. Oh that and them being too chicken to face the Persians at Plataea when challenged, prefeering instead to ride on the coattails of their allies. OK rant over. On a serious note you could have other hoplites play as Wb against them? It would make them crazy but brittle. Against a "professional" hoplite force, citizen hoplites may well appear as wild and imeptuous as the battle wore on, and their discipline broke down.
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Sept 6, 2017 4:39:38 GMT
I don't think they were supermen. But reading Fred Eugene Ray's "Land battles in 5th centuary Greece" has them winning 8/10 (80%) of battles involving greater than 5000 men compared to Athens 26/39 (68%) and Thebes 6/9 (67%). Surely it's worth trying to replicate that with any house rules regarding hoplite v hoplite battle? Demosthenes won at Sphacteria by not engaging in a hoplite melee. I thought about Warband but it "quick kills" Spear, which doesn't seem right.
Jim
|
|