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Post by martini on Jun 26, 2017 15:59:51 GMT
A little while ago I came across a claim that if LH draw with 4Kn in close combat then the 4Kn must recoil and, further, that all 'heavy troop types' had to recoil from all 'light troop types' if they drew in close combat. I cannot find this in the rules; have I missed something? As far as I can see, when close combat scores are equal, there is no general rule about heavy v light and 4Kn only recoil from 3Kn and solid foot who are not blades, long bow or cross bow.
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Post by stevie on Jun 26, 2017 17:00:00 GMT
I don’t know where you came across these claims, but they are shall we say ‘somewhat less than accurate’. A quick glance at the Combat Outcomes on page 11 of the DBA 3.0 rulebook shows the true situation:- If its total is equal to that of its opponent: [11.5] No effect if sacking, attacking or defending a city, fort or camp. If not:- Scythed Chariots Destroyed. Knights or Camelry Destroyed (in close combat) by any Blades or any Bows that are Lb or Cb (in close combat only – see FAQ), recoiled (in close combat) by other “Solid” foot. 4Kn recoiled (in close combat) by 3Kn. Otherwise no effect. Other mounted Recoiled by “Solid” foot (in close combat), otherwise no effect. "Fast" foot Recoiled by “Solid” foot (in close combat with it or shooting at it), otherwise no effect. "Solid" foot Destroyed by foot if CP, CWg or Lit & in contact on 2 or more edges by enemy front edges, otherwise no effect. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:- fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 26, 2017 21:54:42 GMT
Stevie is correct. Fast Recoil from non-Fast. Mounted from non-Fast Foot (Exception: Knights & Camelry are Destroyed by Blades, LB & CB) Scythed Chariots Destroyed.
DBA's presentation style can make gleaning this information difficult - so don't be discouraged about getting a few things wrong at first.
TomT
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Post by barritus on Jun 27, 2017 2:28:57 GMT
Whilst on the subject of drawn combats can I ask the following question; What happens if a CP, CWg or Lit is contacted on two sides by Fast foot and the combat is a draw ? Do the fast foot recoil or is the CP, CWg or Lit destroyed (or both) thanks B.
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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 27, 2017 15:23:00 GMT
I think this is the appropriate rules:
Generals operating from stationary command positions accompanied by staff and bodyguards (CP), or carried in litters surrounded by bodyguards (Lit), and standard-bearing command wagons with guards (CWg) of the Khazars and Italian city states are treated as “Solid” Blades except that they cannot move into contact with enemy.
Fast foot Recoiled by “Solid” foot in close combat with it or shooting at it, otherwise no effect. Solid foot Destroyed by foot if CP, CWg or Lit & in contact on 2 or more edges by enemy front edges, otherwise no effect.
So it appears that we have two contradictory results. I guess the easiest solution is to just work down the "Equals" list and since we come to the Fast foot result first - we apply that so the Fast Foot Recoil. Command Posts what a headache....I've come to believe the "No Recoil" result is a mistake for all but WarWagons.
Anyone have a better thought about what to do?
TomT
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 27, 2017 16:12:45 GMT
I think this is the appropriate rules: Generals operating from stationary command positions accompanied by staff and bodyguards (CP), or carried in litters surrounded by bodyguards (Lit), and standard-bearing command wagons with guards (CWg) of the Khazars and Italian city states are treated as “Solid” Blades except that they cannot move into contact with enemy. Fast foot Recoiled by “Solid” foot in close combat with it or shooting at it, otherwise no effect. Solid foot Destroyed by foot if CP, CWg or Lit & in contact on 2 or more edges by enemy front edges, otherwise no effect. So it appears that we have two contradictory results. I guess the easiest solution is to just work down the "Equals" list and since we come to the Fast foot result first - we apply that so the Fast Foot Recoil. Command Posts what a headache....I've come to believe the "No Recoil" result is a mistake for all but WarWagons. Anyone have a better thought about what to do? TomT My inclination would be to say that "destroyed" trumps "recoil".
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Post by martini on Jun 27, 2017 16:34:06 GMT
Thanks to Stevie and Medieval Thomas for responding. It is good to know that I hadn't missed something important in the rules.
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Post by lkmjbc on Jun 27, 2017 16:49:26 GMT
My own thoughts would be to follow the results for both attacker and defender... the fast foot recoils... the CP is destroyed...
This also works when one attacking element is Fast and the other is Solid...
Joe Collins
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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 28, 2017 20:42:28 GMT
I just can't conceive of why the Fast Foot would Recoil after Destroying the CP.
I think when in doubt apply the milder result. I give the benefit of the doubt to the desperate CP defenders over the loose order Fast guys.
TomT
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Post by twrnz on Jun 30, 2017 11:16:57 GMT
I've been using CPs in a few games of late. They are interesting to use for both friend and for.
However, I completely missed this interaction. Given that an even result is the only chance of destroying a CP when fighting foot it must destroy it.
I'll need to dig my copy of the rules out. How on earth did we miss this?
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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 30, 2017 16:46:27 GMT
Yes we may need to go with the Destoryed Result otherwise Fast Foot would need a Double to ever Destroy a CP.
My son had an Army with a CP but in all our playtest games we seem to never have attacked it with Fast Foot. Its just an interaction that didn't come up. You may recall that I tried to get the US tournament community to switch over to DBA 3.0 Beta for one season to test it fully under tournamnent conditions before final publication. They did something else instead so here we are.
TomT
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Post by bob on Jun 30, 2017 18:14:19 GMT
Why do we assume that Phil was wrong in making this rule. This is his interpretation of what happens when light infantry attack command units. Under very strict circumstances, the light infantry can destroy the command unit But in the process are badly mauled and must withdraw to regroup. The rule is perfectly fine for me as Phil has written it. All of the development team agreed with it at the time. Is there a suggestion the 24 people read this and it did not have a problem?
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Post by lkmjbc on Jun 30, 2017 19:56:02 GMT
Why do we assume that Phil was wrong in making this rule. This is his interpretation of what happens when light infantry attack command units. Under very strict circumstances, the light infantry can destroy the command unit But in the process are badly mauled and must withdraw to regroup. The rule is perfectly fine for me as Phil has written it. All of the development team agreed with it at the time. Is there a suggestion the 24 people read this and it did not have a problem? I concur. The "Fast" troops recoil. The CP is destroyed. Joe Collins
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Post by paulhannah on Jun 30, 2017 20:53:36 GMT
Why do we assume that Phil was wrong in making this rule. This is his interpretation of what happens when light infantry attack command units. Under very strict circumstances, the light infantry can destroy the command unit But in the process are badly mauled and must withdraw to regroup. The rule is perfectly fine for me as Phil has written it. All of the development team agreed with it at the time. Is there a suggestion the 24 people read this and it did not have a problem? I concur. The "Fast" troops recoil. The CP is destroyed. Joe Collins I can live with this. As my friend, Eric, just said offline, any other result would be making up an entirely new rule. Intuitively, it does seem a little odd to me, so I'll just envision these scruffy, Fast Aux types as laughing so hard at achieving such an improbable victory over The Great Prophet, Khagen, or Pope-Mobile that they can't help themselves from stepping back, high-fiving each other as they Recoil. But, as I say, I can live with this. The CP/Lit/CWg is destroyed. The Fast Foot recoil. Really, it's going to occur ever so rarely anyway. It's not worth fussing over too much. Play on.
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Post by twrnz on Jul 1, 2017 7:02:22 GMT
The Fast Foot recoil. Really, it's going to occur ever so rarely anyway. It's not worth fussing over too much. Play on. I've recently been playing a number of games where both players have used Samurai armies. Trying to achieve a double result against a CP is difficult, with a basic factor of six plus a die roll. So attacking it from the flank is useful. However, in the Japanese IV/59 armies there are several fast stands, especially in the IV/59a army which my regular opponent has been using in the last few games. So the potential for this outcome is there. However, I can't recall if I've lost a CP in these games yet or not.
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