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Post by BrianNZ on Apr 13, 2017 3:41:14 GMT
What is a command's Army Break Points worth ?
The rule book states " An army whose cumulative total of lost elements .........etc" DBA v3 page 13
Does 'cumulative' apply to elements lost in the battle or the theoretical maximum of the Command's Value ?
A command of 12 elements of LH and a Cavalry General loses 7 LH elements and is Lost / Removed.
What is the Command worth in Army Break points, 13, 14, 15 ?
13, the number of elements in the command
14, includes the General ( who was not lost during the battle )
15, includes the Camp ( which was not looted/lost during the Battle )
16, if there was a double element included in the command of 13 elements
Thanks
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Post by stevie on Apr 18, 2017 18:57:38 GMT
I’m sorry that it has taken so long for you to receive a reply.
I think it is a bit rude that no-one has answered your question.
Perhaps they were all busy.
Anyway, I’ll have a go...if I’m wrong it will at least generate a debate. 
The relevant part of the rules appears on page 13 in paragraphs 8 and 9:-
Losses [13.8]: An element is lost if it is destroyed or crosses a battlefield edge, but not if only demoralised.
The first double element lost by each command counts as 2 elements lost, and the loss of its general as an extra element lost.
Lost camps: An allied command whose camp is sacked counts this as extra losses only to that command.
Any other camp sacked or city currently controlled by the enemy counts as extra losses to each non-allied command.
Demoralisation [13.9]: A command that at the start of any of its bounds whose lost elements (other than Scythed Chariots, Hordes, camp followers or denizens) total a third of its original troop elements is permanently demoralised.
The key words here are ‘lost elements’...lost generals/camps/cities/double-bases count as extra losses.
In a normal 12 element game of DBA for example, an army is defeated when it has lost 4 element equivalents.
After all, you wouldn’t say that a 12 element army with a general, a camp, a city, and a double-base had a ‘break point’ of 8 elements would you? Lose a garrisoned city that is acting as a camp (so is worth 3 elements; 1 for the troops, 1 for the buildings, and 1 for the camp) and a single element and you’ve lost the battle...even though you have only lost 2 elements and still have 10 elements and a general running around!
So just count one third of your actual elements as the ‘break point’...not the extra element equivalents.
Also remember that there is a difference between a single Command’s Break Points and the Army Break Point.
Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by stevie on Apr 21, 2017 10:31:05 GMT
You know, after re-reading my post above, I’m not sure that my reply to BrianNZ's original question was altogether adequate. So I would like to describe in detail the logic of how I and my friends interpret the BBDBA break points rules so that others can clearly see the methodology behind it and determine if there are any flaws in our thinking.
I think it helps to keep in mind the difference between ‘morale breaking points’ and ‘body-count breaking points’.
A ‘morale breaking point’ takes into account the morale effect of losing high value prestige items such as generals, the first double-base element, camps, and cities, which can cause a 12 element DBA army or a BBDBA command to break earlier than usual.
A ‘body-count breaking point’ is just a simple physical count of lost elements that ignores any prestige and treats all elements as being worth one each (camps and cities are also ignored as they are not elements).
‘Original elements’ refers to a physical count of the actual number of elements within that command or army at the start of the battle: for example, a three command BBDBA army would have 36 elements, no matter what type they are, and therefore a ‘body-count rout point’ of half of this, so would be routed when 18 elements (other than SCh or civilians) are lost.
Consider the following chart (routed commands and routed armies are immediately removed from the battlefield):-
lost lost lost loss of
Ordinary lost SCh’s and General’s Element a Camp
Elements Hordes civilians & 1st Double-Base or City
A 12 element DBA army’s ‘morale rout point’ = if 4 element equivalents are lost: 1 each (ignored) (ignored) 2 each 1 each
A BBDBA Command’s ‘morale demoralization point’ = 1/3 of the original elements: 1 each (ignored) (ignored) 2 each 1 each
A BBDBA Command’s ‘body-count rout point’ = 1/2 of the original elements: 1 each 1 each 1 each 1 each (ignored)
A BBDBA Army ‘body-count rout point’ = 1/2 of the original elements: 1 each 1 each (ignored) 1 each (ignored)
Armies also rout when two commands become demoralized, routed, or have left the battlefield.
Loss of an Army Camp or City affects all Army Commands (but not Allied Commands). The loss of an allied camp only affects that particular Allied Command.
Civilians
Following a discussion with Joe Collins (see: fanaticus.boards.net/thread/522/bbdba-demoralised-garrisons ), remember that camp followers and city denizens must be assigned to a command, or who will pay the PIP costs when they sally? Demoralized camp followers and garrisons also flee (unless held in place by spending PIP’s), and will flee through gates (an exception to the FAQ ruling that prohibits this), while denizens who are currently still within their city do not flee.
I hope all this makes things clearer.
Should any of the above be incorrect then please let me know, as we all want play DBA by the correct rule interpretations.
Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by BrianNZ on Aug 27, 2017 10:10:43 GMT
Well that is detailed Stevie.Well done.
When I run BBDBA events a Command's loss points = 1 point per element lost in combat + 1 point if the General was lost in combat + 1 point if a double based element was lost in combat. This means the loss value for a 12 element command (with no Scythed Chariots) can be 12 or 13 or 14 depending on what was lost in combat. Basically the same applies in DBA where a game is lost on 4 'element points' but if the last element lost was the General then the DBA army would have lost 5 'element points'.
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Post by crazycaptain560 on Sept 28, 2018 8:38:24 GMT
The only thing I am not entirely certain about is when a command has an odd number of elements starting the game. Do you round up? I rounded up last because it helped some commands stay around a little longer.
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Post by timurilank on Sept 28, 2018 9:01:16 GMT
The only thing I am not entirely certain about is when a command has an odd number of elements starting the game. Do you round up? I rounded up last because it helped some commands stay around a little longer. Rounding up or down is up to you, but the total for all three commands to reach demoralisation should equal twelve. |
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Post by goragrad on Sept 28, 2018 9:41:54 GMT
The only thing I am not entirely certain about is when a command has an odd number of elements starting the game. Do you round up? I rounded up last because it helped some commands stay around a little longer. Rounding up or down is up to you, but the total for all three commands to reach demoralisation should equal twelve. At least as played in the Denver Metro region, fractions round up - a seven element command is demoralized at three loses. If the army was composed of 2 seven element commands and a 22 element core the breaks would be 3 each for the seven element command and 8 for the 22. The rules state that when a third of a commands elements are lost it is demoralized. When that has lost half or more of its of its elements is removed immediately. The rules then state that when half of the armies elements (excluding camp followers, scythed chariots, and denizens) are lost or when two if its commands are demoralized, and it has lost more elements in the current bound has lost. So then an army setup as in my example could loose 3 elements (counting a general or the first double element lost in the command as 2 elements) in each of the 7 element commands and loose the battle without reaching 12 elements total. On the other hand, if the 22 element command became demoralized with 8 elements lost, until it was removed or enough elements fled off the table to reach half of the army total the other commands could loose two elements each (bringing the total loses to 12) and still fight on. At least that is how I read the rules, timurilank. |
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Post by timurilank on Sept 28, 2018 14:34:57 GMT
Rounding up or down is up to you, but the total for all three commands to reach demoralisation should equal twelve. At least as played in the Denver Metro region, fractions round up - a seven element command is demoralized at three loses. If the army was composed of 2 seven element commands and a 22 element core the breaks would be 3 each for the seven element command and 8 for the 22. The rules state that when a third of a commands elements are lost it is demoralized. When that has lost half or more of its of its elements is removed immediately. The rules then state that when half of the armies elements (excluding camp followers, scythed chariots, and denizens) are lost or when two if its commands are demoralized, and it has lost more elements in the current bound has lost. So then an army setup as in my example could loose 3 elements (counting a general or the first double element lost in the command as 2 elements) in each of the 7 element commands and loose the battle without reaching 12 elements total. On the other hand, if the 22 element command became demoralized with 8 elements lost, until it was removed or enough elements fled off the table to reach half of the army total the other commands could loose two elements each (bringing the total loses to 12) and still fight on. At least that is how I read the rules, timurilank. Goragrad,
Squeezing one-third of 36 as 14, is simply wizardry : ).
I like it, but we do not calculate that way; we round ‘off’.
To round 'off' look to the last digit after the decimal point; 5 or higher, round to the nearest higher number or lower number if 4 or less.
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Post by goragrad on Sept 29, 2018 10:59:55 GMT
But the rules say nothing about a BBDBA army losing when losing a third of its elements or that the total of the three commands' demoralization levels should be one third of the total elements. The wording is - two commands demoralized or removed or half of the total army elements lost and having lost more elements in the current bound than the enemy.
Another example is an army with 2 six element commands and a 24 element command. If the two small commands each lost 2 elements and became demoralized in a bound in which the enemy lost fewer elements the army as a whole would lose immediately without a chance to hold the demoralized commands and try to demoralize the enemy in turn. Actually if both small commands lost their generals in a single turn in this case, it would only take two elements lost to lose a game...
Further, by rounding down commands will break when losing less than a third of their elements - directly contrary to the rules.ents.
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Post by twrnz on Oct 6, 2018 1:01:37 GMT
The only thing I am not entirely certain about is when a command has an odd number of elements starting the game. Do you round up? I rounded up last because it helped some commands stay around a little longer. We determine a command of 7 elements is demoralised, when it has lost 3 elements, with some counting as more than one. Commands of 13, 13 and 10 are therefore very common. |
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Post by crazycaptain560 on Oct 19, 2018 22:51:57 GMT
This is all very interesting. I am considering making the break point for commands at 50%, some counting as more than one, being lost. I have seen some scenarios online that have done the same. It would make the smaller command battles last a while longer which is fine for 36 elements because our average playtime from setup to conclusion has been 2 hours. This includes looking up odd situations as we are relatively new to the game. I must add that this has been Marion Romans vs Gauls so things get out of hand quickly.
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Post by goldenhord on Oct 21, 2019 9:08:04 GMT
We used to play Big DBA for fun or demo. 2 armies vs 2 armies, 3 vs 3 and4 vs 4. the Numbers of players may vary.
We removed the demoralization effect to prevent a player to stop playing too quickly, so we placed a lost limit according the Numbers
of played bases. It could be 11,...16.
result is everybody pis playing until the end and it stands not more 3 hours with 48 bases.,less if less bases.
Not fully historical but good for the playability.
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