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Post by stevie on Mar 30, 2017 12:46:56 GMT
Like most if not all of the people here on Fanaticus, I have a great passion for watching historical TV programs. Having recently been give given the box set of “Rome: The Rise and Fall of an Empire” made for TV by the History channel, I have begun to noticed more and more how the British and American academics pronounce certain words differently. Byzantium (the old Greek city on the Bosporus) This one is not a problem, as both sides of the Atlantic appear to enunciate it in the same way as:- Bye-zan-tee-um Byzantines (what we call the eastern half of the later Roman Empire) Bye-zan-tines is how the British historians say it. Biz-en-teens is how the American academics insist on pronouncing it (which is odd considering ‘Byzantium’ above). Vercingetorix (the leader of the Gallic resistance to Caesar) Ver-sing- get-or-ix is used by the British experts. Ver-sing- jet-or-ix is how I’ve heard some American experts say it (although where they get the ‘ j’ from is a mystery). But I shouldn’t critize, as I myself am no expert when it comes pronunciation. Can anyone out there tell me what is the right way to articulate the following?:- Boii (a Gallic tribe in Cisalpine Gaul) Bow-ee-eye or is it Bow-eye-ee? (I prefer the first version). Veii (the first Etruscan city captured by Rome) Vee-ee-eye or should it be Vee-eye-ee? (again I prefer the first enunciation). Darius (the King of Persia who lost to Alexander) Dar-ee-us or Da-rye-us? (I think the second intonation sounds better). Antipater (one of Alexander’s successors) Anti-pater or An-tip-ate-er? (the first seems to be the opposite of something, like anti-matter). Antigonus (another of Alexander’s successors) Anti-gonus or An-tig-on-us? (The first sounds like a cure for some horrible disease: “Do you suffer from Gonus? Then try our new Anti-Gonus!”) And I’m not even going to try to phonetically spell Perdiccas in case I get banned for using bad language....  (I know that none of this is exactly vital, but it would be nice to talk proper, if ya no's wot i meen)
Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by martin on Mar 30, 2017 13:32:53 GMT
Like most if not all of the people here on Fanaticus, I have a great passion for watching historical TV programs. Having recently been give given the box set of “Rome: The Rise and Fall of an Empire” made for TV by the History channel, I have begun to noticed more and more how the British and American academics pronounce certain words differently. Byzantium (the old Greek city on the Bosporus) This one is not a problem, as both sides of the Atlantic appear to enunciate it in the same way as:- Bye-zan-tee-um Byzantines (what we call the eastern half of the later Roman Empire) Bye-zan-tines is how the British historians say it. Biz-en-teens is how the American academics insist on pronouncing it (which is odd considering ‘Byzantium’ above). Vercingetorix (the leader of the Gallic resistance to Caesar) Ver-sing- get-or-ix is used by the British experts. Ver-sing- jet-or-ix is how I’ve heard some American experts say it (although where they get the ‘ j’ from is a mystery). But I shouldn’t critize, as I myself am no expert when it comes pronunciation. Can anyone out there tell me what is the right way to articulate the following?:- Boii (a Gallic tribe in Cisalpine Gaul) Bow-ee-eye or is it Bow-eye-ee? (I prefer the first version). Veii (the first Etruscan city captured by Rome) Vee-ee-eye or should it be Vee-eye-ee? (again I prefer the first enunciation). Darius (the King of Persia who lost to Alexander) Dar-ee-us or Da-rye-us? (I think the second intonation sounds better). Antipater (one of Alexander’s successors) Anti-pater or An-tip-ate-er? (the first seems to be the opposite of something, like anti-matter). Antigonus (another of Alexander’s successors) Anti-gonus or An-tig-on-us? (The first sounds like a cure for some horrible disease: “Do you suffer from Gonus? Then try our new Anti-Gonus!”) And I’m not even going to try to phonetically spell Perdiccas in case I get banned for using bad language.... (I know that none of this is exactly vital, but it would be nice to talk proper, if ya no's wot i meen)
Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
Good luck with that, Stevie. I've asked similar questions on the Society of Ancients forum (re psiloi and Lysimacchus), and there are all sorts of opinions.....also there are, apparently, differences between how words were pronounced in Ancient Greek to how modern Greeks would render a word. It's a bit of a minefield (pron. Mine- feeeeeeeeeeeld ) Martin |
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Post by davidconstable on Mar 30, 2017 20:04:48 GMT
In England we cannot agree on English, so no chance across distances.
Warwickshire/Worcestershire slinget/slinket, adjoining Counties, one letter difference.
My grandfather (ABC) was born at Oxford, the B being Bertie, however like Berkshire (adjoining County), it is pronounced Bartie/Barkshire.
David Constable
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Post by stevie on Apr 1, 2017 18:26:48 GMT
I know what you mean David. There is a place in the midlands called Loughborough, and for those of you unfamiliar with this town it is pronounced as ‘luff-bore-ah’ (although even some of the locals take the mick and call it ‘Luger-Bruger’). Boii and Veii really stump me...how can simple four-letter words be so difficult to pronounce? Oh, if anyone is suffering from Gonus, I’m afraid you can’t get Anti-Gonus on the National Health. It’s made from a compound of Lysimachus and Seleucidus, and was last available in 301 BC from a small chemists near Ipsus.... |
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Post by gregorius on Apr 2, 2017 1:16:44 GMT
What about boy for Boii and vey for Veii? But what would I know coming from the Antipodes  ! Cheers, |
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Post by davidconstable on Apr 2, 2017 6:22:38 GMT
We think we know how the ancient Greeks and Romans spoke, but do we, language gets corrupted over years, let alone silly errors introduced by people.
The one that always makes me laugh is a road in Birmingham (Midlands U.K.).
Now "Monyhull Hall Road" looks OK, however "Monyhull" is a corruption of "Money Hall", so we should end up with "Money Hall Hall Road" (yes the Hall would be in twice).
Stirchley nearby got corrupted by the new railway station being spelt the same way as an existing railway station (wrongly). So the area adopted the station spelling.
David Constable
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Post by martin on Apr 2, 2017 8:12:57 GMT
What about boy for Boii and vey for Veii? But what would I know coming from the Antipodes ! Cheers, I think the late Mr Burns (my Latin teacher of 40 years ago, not Montgomery Burns....) would have taught us to say- Bo-ee-ee and Vey-ee-ee. But he's not around to ask..... Martin |
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Post by macbeth on Apr 2, 2017 22:24:06 GMT
What about boy for Boii and vey for Veii? But what would I know coming from the Antipodes ! Cheers, If you were the only Boii in the world and I was the only Gaul
Every Blemmye loves Nobades sometimes 
Oh I do like to be beside the Hsi Hsia 
Cheers
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Post by macbeth on Apr 2, 2017 22:27:50 GMT
We think we know how the ancient Greeks and Romans spoke, but do we, language gets corrupted over years, let alone silly errors introduced by people. The one that always makes me laugh is a road in Birmingham (Midlands U.K.). Now "Monyhull Hall Road" looks OK, however "Monyhull" is a corruption of "Money Hall", so we should end up with "Money Hall Hall Road" (yes the Hall would be in twice). Stirchley nearby got corrupted by the new railway station being spelt the same way as an existing railway station (wrongly). So the area adopted the station spelling. David Constable I worked with a gentleman whose name was spelt Dalziel. My own love of UK crime procedurals meant that I knew it was pronounced Dee-Ell and at the time we were working together he fought a gallant rearguard action to ensure correct pronunciation. But over time and after he was married (with the consequent expansion of his social circle) he quietly gave up and is now pronouncing it Dal Zeel himself 
cheers
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 3, 2017 6:27:31 GMT
We have it up here too, the village of Ulgham in Northumberland(pronounced Uffam) dates back to at least Anglo-Saxon/Norman times.
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Post by Commiades on Apr 3, 2017 6:42:04 GMT
It's worth remembering that the way these were pronounced by Romans and Greeks is largely irrelevant. The vowels and consonants should be those of English, not the ancient languages. We say See-zer, not Kai-ser. What is less easy to guess is where the stress falls. It's normal to say mArius, but darIus, something that's not possible to predict.
Having said that, ever since the reforms of Latin pronunciation to something like the ancient forms (around 100 years ago), the two systems have become mixed. The pronunciation of alumni and alumnae is very confused, as they're reversed for the two systems: Classical alumni is traditional alumnae and vice versa.
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Post by martin on Apr 3, 2017 7:42:06 GMT
It's worth remembering that the way these were pronounced by Romans and Greeks is largely irrelevant. The vowels and consonants should be those of English, not the ancient languages. We say See-zer, not Kai-ser. What is less easy to guess is where the stress falls. It's normal to say mArius, but darIus, something that's not possible to predict. Having said that, ever since the reforms of Latin pronunciation to something like the ancient forms (around 100 years ago), the two systems have become mixed. The pronunciation of alumni and alumnae is very confused, as they're reversed for the two systems: Classical alumni is traditional alumnae and vice versa. Maybe, but if we're using archaic words not in common modern usage, like psiloi, auxilia, thureophoroi etc, then we have to make some attempt to guess what they SHOULD sound like, especially as the letters in the word as written and its pronunciation don't always match modern expectations. |
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Post by davidconstable on Apr 4, 2017 5:11:32 GMT
I am reminded about BBC radio and the way the announcers spoke both before and just after WW2. Now do we take that as proper English? If so an awful lot of people are going to be upset.
That is in living memory, not 2000 years ago.
David Constable
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Post by Cromwell on Apr 4, 2017 7:04:59 GMT
Everyone should talk proper like what I do!
Little boy at school says to Teacher
"Here's the essay what I wrote"
Teacher asks
"Where is your Grammar?"
Little Boy
"At home with me Grandpa"
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Post by Antigonos on Apr 4, 2017 9:17:17 GMT
In a lot of cases I think correct pronunciation would depend on the ability to speak the original language, e.g. ancient Greek. Even then local dialect would play a part. I'm sure Hannibal after all those years in Italy allied to so many different peoples, didn't speak 'pure' Punic (or whatever the Carthaginians called their language or themselves) at the end.
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