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Post by Brian Ború on Jun 13, 2023 15:28:28 GMT
Good points raised by Brian and Vodnik. This is why David Constable’s idea of allowing BOTH players to each pick 2 or 3 terrain pieces works. (See the first post of this thread)
The players themselves decide if they have a good or bad going type army, and choose appropriately. And no finicky combat factor counting or other rule changes required… Yep, elegant & simple solutions are best!
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Post by stevie on Jun 14, 2023 7:28:28 GMT
Oh, I forgot to mention something.
The defender places all terrain, but must alternate each placement, i.e. first a defender’s piece, then an invader’s piece, and so on.
This prevents defender’s from placing all their terrain first, in the hope that there will be no room left for the invader’s terrain.
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Post by Brian Ború on Jun 14, 2023 15:34:54 GMT
Meanwhile I have played two battles with Norse Irish and Vikings and playtested different army sizes. In both battles I supplied the Irish with two additional 3Ax and two Ps, thus fielding 16 (!) units against the usual 12.
The result was astonishing: One outright victory (0:4 lost units) and one crushing defeat (5:0).
Conclusion: unequal army sizes might work...
(And it's always the man behind the... good PIP throw.)
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Post by Baldie on Jun 14, 2023 20:04:25 GMT
Meanwhile I have played two battles with Norse Irish and Vikings and playtested different army sizes. In both battles I supplied the Irish with two additional 3Ax and two Ps, thus fielding 16 (!) units against the usual 12. The result was astonishing: One outright victory (0:4 lost units) and one crushing defeat (5:0). Conclusion: unequal army sizes might work... (And it's always the man behind the... good PIP throw.) I do like HoTT and DBN points systems
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Post by stevie on Jun 14, 2023 20:31:21 GMT
We must remember Baldie that the element types in HoTT have slightly different combat outcomes than they do in DBA, so will probably need to have slightly different point values, (Knights 'quick killing' Blades for example)
Plus HoTT doesn’t have weak wimpy Auxiliaries…what would their point value be? Perhaps:- El/Kn = 4 AP? Bd/Sp/Pk/Bows/Cv = 3 AP? Wb/Ax/Ps/Hd/LH = 2 AP?
And we'd still have the problem of high aggression means unsuitable terrain.
Nonetheless, the HoTT point system is a good place to start…
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Post by jim1973 on Jun 15, 2023 1:23:13 GMT
Oh, I forgot to mention something. The defender places all terrain, but must alternate each placement, i.e. first a defender’s piece, then an invader’s piece, and so on. This prevents defender’s from placing all their terrain first, in the hope that there will be no room left for the invader’s terrain. Tweaking the terrain system to give the invader more scope to affect the battlefield seems very intuitive in order to balance games. I assume that humans haven't changed that much over the millennia and therefore the ancients didn't have a deathwish, so when they stood in battle they had some hope in their own minds of surviving (and perhaps winning but that was more important to the leaders ). Cheers Jim
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Post by Baldie on Jun 15, 2023 5:40:42 GMT
Surviving and perhaps winning, must try it sometime.
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Post by vodnik on Jun 15, 2023 7:22:08 GMT
...there are DBA rules with point value sistem. It's called a bra. 2 Davids only made army lists available online for this...
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Post by snowcat on Jun 15, 2023 8:17:54 GMT
...there are DBA rules with point value sistem. It's called a bra. 2 Davids only made army lists available online for this... Do you mean 'Triumph'?
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Post by vodnik on Jun 15, 2023 8:41:59 GMT
... yes, tat is it. We Swiss gamer all did change DBA22+ to Triumph...
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Post by macbeth on Jun 26, 2023 1:17:24 GMT
So what can we do about it?As with most good ideas, someone other than myself has come up with the best solution. It was David Constable that first suggested the following:- * Roll for aggression as normal to see in which country the battle is being fought. * Both sides secretly choose two or three terrain features appropriate for that region. The defender must choose at least one compulsory feature, the invader can choose any. * There is a new terrain feature called ‘open ground’ (a piece of string up to a maximum of 18 BW long in a loop, and like a Waterway only one can be present in any region). No other terrain (except a Road) can be placed on top of ‘open ground'. * The defender places all terrain as per the current placement rules, but must alternate placement, i.e. first a defender's piece, than an invader's piece, then another defender's, and so on. * After the first compulsory feature has been placed, any additional terrain that exceeds the maximum allowed amount or won’t fit is discarded. * The invader now chooses the base edges, limited by the presence of any Roads. I did this in 2018 under the Competition Title "Common Ground" back in 2018 - it ran very well. You can see the full report in the Tournaments section of the forum Common Ground – DBA With A Twist Sunday 27th May 2018 at the Austrian Australian Club in Mawson ACT, saw a gathering of 14 players for the sixteenth Canberra Kriegspielers “DBA With A Twist” events, where we play a tournament with a slight tweak to the rules. This year, following some debate on the forums, over the balance in terrain placement, our change was to divide the terrain placement between the two sides. • Dice for Attacker and Defender as normal • The Defender chooses 1-2 Compulsory and 1 Optional terrain feature from their topography • The Attacker chooses 1-2 Optional features from the defender’s topography. They may replace one feature with an Open Space – area feature placed as a normal area feature but treated as good going. An attacker cannot choose a City or Fort as a BUA feature • The usual rules for the number of particular features and any restrictions on type (eg in Littoral – Woods or Dunes, if the defender had picked Woods the defender cannot pick Dunes) apply. • The Defender rolls to place the compulsory features, then the Attacker rolls to place their first optional feature. The Defender rolls to place their optional feature and then the Attacker rolls to place their next optional feature (if applicable), This made different armies with high aggression more viable as they had some control over the terrain they fought in. Cheers
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