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Post by snowcat on Aug 5, 2023 7:30:11 GMT
... So *if* greater effectiveness is required:
distant shooting CF 3 at 1BW
OR
distant shooting CF 2 at 1-1/2 BW.
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Post by stevie on Aug 5, 2023 7:37:46 GMT
Actually, in my playtesting I don’t find that extra shooting slows the game at all.
After all, when troops touch each other frontally (in ‘close combat’), you have to go through the combat sequence. With the extra shooting range, when they get close enough (1 BW), you have to go through the shooting sequence… …but if the enemy is not shooting back they can ignore any unfavorable outcome. Either way you do it (in ‘close combat’ or ‘when skirmish shooting’) the time taken is the same.
As for the rest, I’m keeping out of this debate. Yes, something definitely needs to be done about the unrealistic artificial weakness of LH and Horse archers, but I’m just not sure what. It would be nice if the fix were nice and simple…however that doesn’t seem to be possible.
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Post by snowcat on Aug 5, 2023 7:42:11 GMT
Vodnik keeps mentioning the QK's for LH in 2.2. While I think they're possibly a bit 'too much', they do fall into the category of 'nice and simple fix' for degrading/disordering the enemy frontally, albeit by blowing holes through them!
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Post by vodnik on Aug 5, 2023 8:59:01 GMT
stevie@: it is simple you have one desision: Version 2,2 or 3. That is all you have to clear...
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Post by stevie on Aug 5, 2023 10:57:00 GMT
Wot…play DBA 2.2, and give up the brilliant side-support for Spears, and forgo the superior terrain placement mechanism, and have to put up with all the geometric trickery preventing contact, not to mention the unrealistic artificial ‘swapping units’ during deployment?…
Naaa…not for me thanks.
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Post by vodnik on Aug 5, 2023 14:01:12 GMT
...all of us did use DBA 2.2 before version 3 including all englich and Ami gamers and all in the world. # thenew terrain placement mechanism is just an other one # what geometric trickery do you mean? We ussed the smaller " and not base width also a geometric trickery as well # i like to play DBA with fighting elements and not with mathematic formations # there are swpping units if you allow that, but i fhink other gamers like that ...but i still prefer the old rules with a few army daptations...
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Post by stevie on Aug 5, 2023 14:29:13 GMT
…and we all used DBA 1.0 before DBA 2.0 & 2.2 came out… …but only because that was the best there was at the time. (We also used to travel on steam trains, sailing ships, and biplanes. Perhaps we should go back to them…Ha, ha, ha! )By ’geometric trickery’ I mean the forming of zig-zag lines, or partially hiding one front corner behind another unit, in both cases preventing contact. And since Horse Archers have to get into ‘close combat’ to fight, they can’t even use their bows to shoot at such an enemy! How realistic is that? As for the ‘swapping-of-elements-during-deployment’…good grief, even HoTT doesn't allow this, and that’s a set of Fantasy rules where anything can happen. Times change…technology and software (plus wargame rules) get better… …although not quite as fast as I would like.
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Post by vodnik on Aug 5, 2023 15:22:43 GMT
...OK times change…technology and software (plus wargame rules) get better? or more expensive...
...but using DBA you have to accept: distant shooting is limited to artillery up to 5BW and bows and war-wagons up to 3 BW in the present version. To explain that: bows perform dense shooting in volleys at command. But horse archers are shooting several individualy at close range, similar to psiloi...
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Post by stevie on Aug 5, 2023 16:08:32 GMT
Ah, dogma vs free thinking and real-world observation… …as used by the Inquisition when they forced Galileo to recant his observation that the Sun doesn’t go around the Earth. “Just follow The Book, don’t question it, even when it’s wrong.” But you do make a good point about LH using individual ‘sniper fire’. So here’s a thought… …why do LH have to have their front-corner touching an enemy front-corner? Shouldn’t they be able to use their short range missiles by merely touching? Or will none of them use individual ‘sniper fire’ just because Fred at the end of the line isn’t touching the enemy’s front-corner? We must remember how and why DBA has evolved:- DBA 1.0 was a good idea, but was full of historical inaccuracies and gameplay flaws. So DBA 2.0 tried to correct things, but it still had some major flaws. DBA 2.1 tried to make some corrections, but it too still had some flaws. Then DBA 2.2 came along, better, but still had some flaws. Finally we get DBA 3.0…a vast improvement, but it has a few flaws… You don’t evolve by standing still, or we would all still be living in caves.
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Post by paddy649 on Aug 5, 2023 18:52:11 GMT
I made it that way (initially) because it limits their effect. It makes it hard to achieve combined shooting frontally because of the Threat Zone distance. They need to force a recoil, and then rely to some extent on a low PIP roll from their opponent to not redress their line. Then the LH can use combined shooting here and there because of the recoiled enemy element (being out of Threat Zone distance). My thinking was to make the horse archers as weak as possible initially with this rule for playtesting. If playtesting showed that they're still unable to do enough degrading/disordering frontally, their chances can always be improved by either: 1. increasing their distant-shooting CF; or 2. increasing the distance of their distant-shooting to 60 paces (beyond the Threat Zone) and making combined shooting easier. I misunderstood Snowcat. I thought the proposal was to give LH distant shooting to 1BW. If so they will always fire to the opponent to their front. I suppose if they don’t have an opponent to their front they could combine. Dunno. I’ll break out my Skythians and Mongols and give it a go! Where we are 100% aligned is that LH are broken in RAW and do need a boost! Where
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Post by snowcat on Aug 6, 2023 1:50:07 GMT
Yes. I'll repeat these alternative 'upgrade' options again *if* greater effectiveness is required: distant shooting CF 3 at 1BW (80 paces) OR distant shooting CF 2 at 1-1/2 BW (120 paces). Note: Re the 120 paces option, 120 paces = 90m, roughly equivalent to the 100 yards that horse archers historically typically began firing at, so 120 paces would still be okay 'realistically'. At 2BW 160 paces (120m) we're possibly pushing the friendship a little, so 120 paces or 1-1/2 BW might be best as the longest range for horse archer distant shooting. (2BW or 160 paces is still there as a last resort so to speak.) The 1-1/2 BW (120 paces) option definitely allows combined shooting from the outset. Now, *if* the above upgrade options are still not effective enough, then there is a further upgrade option (and you can probably guess what it is): CF 3 distant shooting at 1-1/2 BW (120 paces). I developed this idea with these potential upgrades in mind. I didn't want to propose a rule that playtesters were likely to immediately say was 'too good' or 'too much' for horse archers. I deliberately limited it, knowing I could always go 'up' rather than being forced to go 'down' after a negative review.
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Post by paddy649 on Aug 6, 2023 15:06:51 GMT
So page 2 of the rules says that a BW is roughly equivalent to 80 paces in real life. A “pace” according to Wikipedia is 75cm or 30”. So a BW roughly equals 60m.
Given this what range is proposed for LH?
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Post by vodnik on Aug 6, 2023 17:22:26 GMT
Playing ADG the mesurement of distance is based on the range of a typical infantry bow which was about 250 metres. For 15mm miniatures the range of the bow in the game is 16cm which give a scale of 1cm on the table for about 15metres. The shorter range for LH and PS armed with bow is 2UD or 125m. For men armed with javelin the range is 1UD...
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Post by skb777 on Aug 6, 2023 17:24:57 GMT
I don't think LH/LI should ever have a CF more than 2 as they are and should be less effective than 3/4 BW or even CV BW.
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Post by vodnik on Aug 6, 2023 21:49:35 GMT
...that is just an idea for that people that like shooting skirmishers in action...
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